Did you know this about Jammu and Kashmir?
Recently I’ve been observing most of us making raging and sentimental comments about Kashmir ..So I just thought of digging more into what the whole hype is all about.Though I find history a boring subject,the reading about Kashmir’s history was rather an intersting one,especially when related to the comments made today,by people who are ignorant of what happened yesterday,and uninterested of what may happen tomorrow..
Kashmir,the heaven on earth; Ka means “water” and Shimir means “to desiccate”.Kashmir stands for “a land desiccated from water”.What is it as of today,a valley of streaming blood?Let’s look back at some history,as I believe that it is history that made life of people of heaven hell..
A briefing from wikipedia:
The Mauryan emperor Ashoka is often credited with having founded the city of Srinagar. Kashmir was once a Buddhist seat of learning. Following the advent of Muslim rule in 1349, Islam became the dominant religion in Kashmir. The Muslims and Hindus of Kashmir lived in relative harmony, since the Sufi-Islamic way of life that ordinary Muslims followed in Kashmir complemented the Rishi tradition of Kashmiri Pandits. This led to a synergetic culture where Hindus and Muslims revered the same local saints and prayed at the same shrines and Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists were co-existing in the atmosphere of love and brotherhood.
Earlier, in 1780, after the death of Ranjit Deo, the Raja of Jammu, the kingdom of Jammu (to the south of the Kashmir valley) was captured by the Sikhs under Ranjit Singh of Lahore and afterwards, until 1846, became a tributary to the Sikh power. In 1845, the First Anglo-Sikh War broke out, and Gulab Singh “contrived to hold himself aloof till the battle of Sobraon (1846), when he appeared as a useful mediator and the trusted advisor of Sir Henry Lawrence. Two treaties were concluded. By the first the State of Lahore (i.e. West Punjab) handed over to the British, as equivalent for (rupees) one crore of indemnity, the hill countries between Beas and Indus; by the second, the British made over to Gulab Singh for (Rupees) 75 lakhs all the hilly or mountainous country situated to the east of Indus and west of Ravi” (i.e. the Vale of Kashmir . Soon after Gulab Singh’s death in 1857, his son, Ranbir Singh.After the Indian Rebellion of 1857, in which Kashmir sided with the British, and the subsequent assumption of direct rule by Great Britain, the princely state of Kashmir came under the paramountcy of the British Crown.
Ranbir Singh’s grandson Hari Singh, who had ascended the throne of Kashmir in 1925, was the reigning monarch in 1947 at the conclusion of British rule of the subcontinent and the subsequent partition of the British Indian Empire into the newly independent Union of India and the Dominion of Pakistan. As parties to the partition process, both countries had agreed that the people or elders of these states will decide to opt for either Pakistan or India keeping in view the geographical position and religious beliefs of the majority of the people or—in special cases—to remain independent. In 1947, Kashmir’s population was 80 per cent Muslim and it shared boundaries with Pakistan and India. Hence, it was anticipated that the Maharaja would accede to Pakistan or India, when the British paramountcy ended on 14-15 August. When he hesitated to do this, a struggle broke out, supported by Pakistan. The Maharaja appealed to Mountbatten for assistance, and the Governor-General agreed on the condition that the ruler accede to India. Once the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession, which included a clause added by Mountbatten asking that the wishes of the Kashmiri people be taken into account, Indian soldiers entered Kashmir and drove the Pakistani-sponsored irregulars from all but a small section of the state. India approached the United Nations security council for cease fire and to mediate the quarrel. The UN Security Council passed the resolution that the opinion of Kashmiris must be ascertained. The Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru promised a Plebiscite under UN supervision which never happened as one of the pre-conditions for the same was Pakistan should withdraw all Military forces from the region of Kashmir.
In the last days of 1948, a ceasefire was agreed under UN auspices; however, since the plebiscite demanded by the UN was never conducted, relations between India and Pakistan soured,and eventually led to two more wars over Kashmir in 1965 and 1999. India has control of about half the area of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir; Pakistan controls a third of the region, the Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir. According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Although there was a clear Muslim majority in Kashmir before the 1947 partition and its economic, cultural, and geographic contiguity with the Muslim-majority area of the Punjab (in Pakistan) could be convincingly demonstrated, the political developments during and after the partition resulted in a division of the region. Pakistan was left with territory that, although basically Muslim in character, was thinly populated, relatively inaccessible, and economically underdeveloped. The largest Muslim group, situated in the Vale of Kashmir and estimated to number more than half the population of the entire region, lay in Indian-administered territory, with its former outlets via the Jhelum valley route blocked.”
Currently,The region is divided among three countries in a territorial dispute: Pakistan controls the northwest portion (Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir), India controls the central and southern portion (Jammu and Kashmir) and Ladakh, and China controls the northeastern portion (Aksai Chin and the Trans-Karakoram Tract). India also controls the majority of the Siachen Glacier area including the Saltoro Ridge passes), whereas Pakistan controls the lower territory just southwest of the Saltoro Ridge. India controls 101,387 km2 (39,146 sq mi), Pakistan 85,846 km2 (33,145 sq mi) and China, the remaining 37,555 km2 (14,500 sq mi).
Now, it makes some sense to me as to what is happening in Kashmir today .I am sure most of the people who take this issue as Muslim-fanatic cause, know nothing about what was it that lead to such a pathetic state as of today .I understand that Jammu and Kashmir was purely a political issue, which has turned into a completely religious one in nature over a course of 61 years. I wonder why on earth Hari Singh opted not to join neither India nor Pakistan.. His name will be written in history, in cow dung , for having made a decision that spoiled life of many fellow people, for years ,and many more years to come..
Political parties have taken the most of this issue. Religious fanatics too have used the matter to maximum possible extent, to suit their selfish needs.. But in the end, can anybody answer as to who won and who lost..
What went wrong in Kashmir is that, we have been looking at the issue as a Hindu vs Muslim. Sadly it is not otherwise, though many religious factors have contributed to make the situation even worse.
Don’t mix religion here. This is an issue of redrawing the contours, for the sake of humanity. This is in no way related to other communal issues moving around ,as like in Nagaland and Assam.The integrity of India cannot be questioned, but Kashmir was never part of India, was it? From very day we gained ‘independence’ there is issues going on in the valley.. Its high time we bring an end to it.
As an Indian,I am very much concerned about my nation’s security issues ,once an independent J&K nation is formed.But I believe that India is strong enough to take care of security concerns.But one question is left unanswered;how will the kashmiris survive then?I don’t think Pakistan will care a damn about it.Just for instance,recall what happened during 2005 earthquakes.But then again,they made their own choice and are entitled to deal with the consequences.
During partition, people from other states of India joined Indian union out of their own free will. Same right should be extended to Kashmir .Let them decide what they want. Let India not act like America ,withholding somebody else’s land, even when the inhabitants are against themselves being controlled by an ‘external force’ .I had always stood for national interest,and will remain to do so till my last breath. But I just realized that I was concerned about Kashmir, not about Kashmiris. .Don’t they deserve a life ?Or is it destined to be another Isreal-Palastein conflict?
P.S:
Read a Kashmiri writing about the other side of Kashmir http://www.saadat.in/blog
Nimmy's Experiment with Blogging 
Very honestly speaking, Kashmir was never part of India. If plebiscite had been offered to the Kashmiris, they would have opted for Pakistan. An independent J&K is not viable, they will have to align with Pakistan.
What is being questioned is not the right of self determination for Kashmiris. What is being questioned is the manner in which self determination is being pursued – militancy, violence against the Pandits etc.
Above all, why does the leadership not openly declare that it wants to secede and merge into Pakistan? At least, then, India will know the stand it needs to take
Kashir is always a part of indian territory and muslims are not part of india and if you study the history than indian territory starts from western afganistan and it goes till tibet . firstly study your culture and history than debate.
m with u…..
I think you should update your GK before saying any nonsense
Pakistan is its own enemy, see all the bomb blasts taking in pakistan.
And so where’s the question of it controlling kashmir ?
India will rule it, forever.
If anyone from kashmir wants to go to pakistan then go away no one cares, here for you in india.
hindustan hamara hai kasmir hamara hai aur rahega aur jo bolte hai wo bolte hi rahege hindustan zindabad kashmir zindabad………………………
jai hind
i think u should come here and stay here as kashmiri after that i will ask for your comments….
@Milind,you are right..But nobody,not even any crappy leader will tell that as they are almost sure that Pakistan will not welcome themm.Even if that happens,they will have to live as refugees all life.
Again,as you said,the violence and ethenic cleansing of pundits have overshadowed the ultimate reasonng for which they are fighting..
Im afraid that if J&K goes out of India,the rest of muslims in India will be asked”Hell,why dn’t you go to your land,Pakistan”..Indeed very delicate situation..
“but Kashmir was never part of India, was it?”
Duh – “The Mauryan emperor Ashoka is often credited with having founded the city of Srinagar”.- A briefing from YOUR wikipedia
-Nay he was a Arabic Muslim raider lol
‘When he hesitated to do this, a struggle broke out, supported by Pakistan’.
-Not a struggle but a massacre, plunder, mass rape By the paki’s with support from Muslims pasthun’s (the same guys who are called Taliban nowadays).
we gained ‘independence’ –
-the inverted comma say a lot about your mindset
how will the kashmiris survive then?
-You need not worry they are going nowhere from India for another millinia.
Nimmy,
First of all I dont intend to question the intention of this blog..But I am just correcting some your statements.
1.”both countries had agreed that the people or elders of these states will decide to opt for either Pakistan or India keeping in view the geographical position and religious beliefs of the majority of the people or—in special cases—to remain independent.”
This statement is wrong (I know you picked from wikipedia) 🙂
It was not the people who where given the right to decide,but it was the ruler of the province who was given the decide which way he has to go..(You can check this in any authentic website…including other articles in wikipedia)
2.Kashmir was never part of India, was it?
Yes, the entire Kashmir was part of India…(From October 26, 1947)
On October 26, 1947 Hari singh signed Instrument of Accession through which gave control of Jammu and Kashmir to the government of India.
Since this is a very delicate issue I dont wish to comment more on this 🙂
@Aam Insaan,Dn’t try to sideline the topic into purely a hindu-muslim stuff..That is what all are talking aboput..Im trying to see the other side..Correct me when I go wrong.
I am very much as aam insaan striving for roti kapda and makaan.I wonder what makes me less patriotic than you.
Are you implying that Ashoka is a muslim radier.. I agre that it was intolerent muslim rulers who spiled the harmony in the beginning.I dn’t relly understand what you are trying to say..
And your refernce to ” From very day we gained ‘independence’”..yeah,i’ll still tell it loud that we gained independence from British,but we are still slaves of divisional and seperatist ideas they left behind..am i wrong?
I dn’t like my country getting divided into pieces.Until I read history,i thought of Kashmiris as bloody ungrateful people who wanats to join Pakistan.I want to dumb all such people into Arabian sea.But I think that the issue with Kashmir is something else..
If i am wrong,correct me..I am not subborn enough to cling on to false delusions..All I was did was quoting from wiki..I don’t claim to be right,as wiki can be edited by any dumbo..
@Arjun,as i said,i was just quoting from wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir
Yes,you are right..But I does that make a difference..I don’t know
“After the British withdrew from the Indian subcontinent in 1947, territorial disputes over Kashmir started brewing. When India and Pakistan were partitioned, the ruler of the princely state of Kashmir was given the right to decide on whether to merge with either Pakistan or India or remain independent with certain reservations. ”
I am sad that seperatist ideas have been deep rooted in many minds..All discussion forums are stuffed with comments filled with haterd..I feel intimidated and frustrated as to thinking what makes me a ‘lesser’ indian..
This is simple,the muslims in other parts of India opted to stay loyal during 1947..So,there isn’t a need to mess with the rest of muslims in this issue.
To All,
Border line of every nation is subjected to time line; it make the changes in landscape,culture and life. Before the independce; what was the india ? something like a boxing stage with many participants, I mean many small states.
Here we are thinking minortie’s right even we have ‘Modi,like guys.Just think; a nation was devided just bcoz of religion.The reason behind birth of Pakistan was a religion even we had more Muslim at the time of partition.
The Gujarath tragedy celebrated in quotes like Palistine issue but minority issue like Kashmiri pandit and north eastern still remain in back pages they also believe they are not part of India.
Still we have a common culture seams to be very delicate but strong; like Germany we may hope Pakistan and India union without a war and should not be for religion.
Time line will change line of controle between the nations and religions and everything.
Nimmy,
If the Central Govt in India accedes to giving Independence to Kashmir will it solve the problem? I really doubt…
Personallly i dont have any ill feelings toward Pakistan in any way, but from my limited knowledge, i feel the way J&K is run and the way Azad Kashmir is run, we can perceive how this will pan out.
Also about independence to Kashmir, the Govt of India has to think abt other states also. Once a precedent is set, i am sure atleast half a dozen states will ask for that. Than what will they do?
But at the same time a stale mate as it is now, is not the solution, some real Political Will needs to be shown here.
@Vineeth,you are right..I have mentioned that in the post..They kashmir as such has no social-ecnomical-political infrastucture as to strive on its own.Inida has been giving lot of help,but none reached the real people because of fat greedy politicians and so-called leaders..
Also,you are again right,if we give away Kashmir,nagaland will come next,Assam then and so..But what we are forgetting is that Everybody except Kashmir is fighting against integrity of our nation..From my reading of history,i think kashmir and the rest of issues are not related.
Again,an i mentioned,the goodness or capability of Pakistan can be leanerd from their own experience with 2005 earthquakes in Azad Kashmir,when Pakistan took days to reach with help ..
I think we should give kashmiris a chance to choose.They are not deaf or dumb to see what is happening in thier so-called motherland Pakistan.pakistan is on the verge of getting torn into pieces,so they can and should opt to stay with Mother India..Then again,it is a matter of choice.After that,they if they again rant “pakistan meri jann’,drown then in Arabian sea for not beng loyal to India.
actually no one needs to argue over the issue of kashmir….cuz v r just dumb fools who do not know the exact situation. Everyone would feel sad at wat is happening in kashmir but v can’t oppose wat the governments say….it is not reasonable to say that pakistanis took time to overcome the situation in2005…that was the government. And besides this, pakistan is still a developing cuntry whichhas no such equippments to withdraw the effect of situation. It happens too in USA so it can a possibility in pk too. By the way, what i think v can do is to convince people to favour in giving rights to ppl and not arguing over the point who should take over kashmir. Loyalty is not shown by shaking hands with former empires and then been drown in arabian seas…if that is sumthing why are pakistan and india not the best and closest friends…..??Why are they blaming each other…..that is because a point of view changes with the time and it cant be kept constant forcibly…its only ur character and actions along ur thoughts which will persuade sumone to come closer to u.Only adding up lands to empires is not sumthing, u have to finish up adding hearts of ppl wid ur decision as well.
Nimmy there exists no such hindu-muslim stuff what does exists is purely a Rss- muslim stuff . Hindu’s is a term given to the natives of the indian sub-continent (it’s a mass of land that has collided with mainland asia) by persians, indians by europeans & the natives who are a fusion of ancient arya dravidian race called the land Bharat & themselves bharatiya , hindu is a culture not a religion. You don’t term africans arab’s or europeans as a religion do you?
I did not question your patriotism but ridiculed your lack of understanding or history choice is yours, Ashoka was a Emperor of India who converted to Buddhism and during his reign India had converted almost fully into Buddhism and Kashmir was always a integral part of India – uprooting a tree from it’s roots is not freedom for the tree but rather death. And yes only Aam Insaan’s exchange viewpoints the remaining exploit our ignorance.
A proper study of the last days of pre-independence shall throw light that the British after sucking India dry of all it’s wealth were least interested in holding on to India or Indians, the nehru’s & jinnah’s were only of nuisance value for them whereas their only concern lied with the prince’s who owed allegiance to their queen and by whose wealth they had won two world wars, it is documented that the nizam of Hyderabad had gifted the brit’s
100 crores worth of silver compensating the major cost of World War 1. and neither is India a British created state, it has been a great nation always and an independent one even under muslin rule (read proper history of the first War of independence 1857). The Hindu’s pan India have always been diverse and independent.
Drawing parallels of j&k with american adventurism or rather modern day crusades or the illegal occupation of Palestine by Jews, the Israel-Palestinian conflict- is sheer bankruptcy of wisdom if not outright dumb.
@Aaam Admi,I repsect and admire your know how of history..I think I went wrong in
understanding it properly..Sorry..afterll,I don’t wish to create a new nation..i just pray Kashmiris live in peace soon..
Nimmy,
Another point is thte relevance of all these issues.. in such a globalised economy, we know 1000s of software engineers in India, go to office and actually do work for american or european companies.
Most of the products we buy from tvs,cars,home appliances etc etc are MNCs, so then where is there allegiance??
So alot of the relevance for the existence of countries based on “Bounded Area” concpet is becoming irrelevant, but such issues are necassary for the survival of political classes and they are the root cause of such issues.
And thats what i feel abt Kashmir also, rather than the people, it is the political class in all the three involved parties who are causing almost the entire problem.
@Vinneth,”but such issues are necassary for the survival of political classes and they are the root cause of such issues.”..very true…
I just recall some people saying “I hate america”..while sitting in GMC cars and all such stuff..There is no such thing as ‘yours’ or ‘mine”,unless you wanna get left out in caves..
But these political,religious boundaries will never cease to exist
Nimmy i did’nt intend to put you down or had any intentions of that sort rather i just responded to your query-‘I’ve been observing most of us making raging and sentimental comments about Kashmir ..’
once again -no offence meant
@Aam insaan,you think i am lying..go check discussion forums,especially newspaper-related ones to hear most of them ranting “All muslims should be expelled to Pakistan..”Why should I suffer for acts done by others?
In fact im not at all offended..Im glad i learned more.Do visit again:) Good day
Nimmy, i am not accusing you for the statement, rather by responding i mean to endorse your statement ( ’I’ve been observing most of us making raging and sentimental comments about Kashmir ..’)
& infact i fully agree with the first paragraph of your article & i compliment you for very aptly & intelligently summarizing the unintelligible & pervert patriotic jingoism on display at the various forums, i only differed on our respective viewpoint on the topic.
@Aam Insaan,ok..no worries:-)
Differeing in view point is not fighting..So don’t stop doing so..Good day.
Kashmiri muslims are suffering , I agree , mostly . I read your other post about Kashmir, and that rape thing is abominable . But , what about the kashmiri pundits ? Nobody seems to be talking about them ? Aren’t they living like refugess in their own country ?
@Kislay,I agree with you.Sadly,our Kashmir has turned out similar to Palastein ..Hindus are living in refugee camps and muslims are living there under all torture from both Army and militants..
I am aware of ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits..I never said that is “OK”..What I thought was to ponder over the present..In my post,I was arguing that the final decision of J&K should involve every native,even those pundits who are living in exile..God bless and everything turns out fine soon.Good day!
A very good analysis. However, I dont think self determination is the answer. This will open a Pandora’s box. We have faced similar situation before with Punjab, Tamil nadu, etc. I dont see why we need to treat Kashmir in a different way.
A long term soultion would be to integrate Kashmiris in India completely just as we integrated about 1500 other states including Junagadh and Hyderabad 🙂
No contry on earth will treat Kashmir well,other than India..But as long as the emotional thirst for freedom remains in their hearts,they’ll not be happy..and thatz why i opted for self detremination,so that both the good and bad happens bcoz of their choice.
This is not to be mixed with Punjab and Tamil Nadu,as i think Kashmir is a unfinished partition business,while other are internal conflicts..I maybe wrong..as my understanding of history is weak:)
Keep visiting..Good day
The fact is that whatever good or bad happens will happen with the entire sub continent and not just with Kashmir. As I said in my article here http://indiaunbound.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/the-kashmir-conundrum/ this will affect the minorities living in India, will give rise to secession demands in other states of India and even in Pakistan.
So out of fatigue, let us not go for a short term solution, just as our leaders did in 1947, but think long term and do not repeat the mistake of partition.
Nimmy, what about the people of jammu,ladakh,kargil who are minimum 35-40% of the population who fully accept they are indian & do not want to join pakistan or azad kashmir at any cost & on the other hand the kashmiri muslims & pakistani’s furiously claim that even they shall have to be given to pakistan as jammu & kashmir is a single state, should this demand also be met?
Nimitha,just clear one doubt
Why all terrorists are Muslims?
Why no Christan or Buddhist or some thing else….
there is no such concept of terrorism in islam…simply those terrorists who say are jst hypocrites and want to insult and make fun of islam openly.They r infact not muslims and by the way, u r not related to terrorists, are u?then how can u say all terrorists r muslims??
My heart goes out to the people of Kargil. They are Muslims, but they adore India. I wish there had been many, many more such all over the country. There probably are, but possibly, they are not very vocal.
If they were, the very perception of Muslims would change radically.
@Prabha..I think you got your facts wrong:)
” In fact it is a blatant distortion of history. Eric Rudolph, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nicholes were\are non-Muslim terrorists. The Irish Republican Army and the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka are not Muslims, nor are the various Marxist terror outfits in Columbia and the Philippines. Or how about Aryan militant William J Krar who was caught with chemical weapons? (http://www.adl.org/learn/news/extremist_chemical.asp). Do you not consider all these non-Muslims as terrorists?”
Non Muslim terror organizations
Armata Corsa
Aum Shinrikyo
Chukaku-Ha
Irish Republican Army
Japanese Red Army
Kach and Kahane Chai
Lautaro Youth Movement
Loyalist Volunteer Force
Manuel Rodriquez Patriotic Front
Moranzanist Patriotic Front
National Liberation Army Colombia
National Liberation Front of Corsica
Nestor Paz Zamora Commission (CNPZ)
New People’s Army
Party of Democratic Kampuchea
Real IRA
Red Army Faction
Red Brigades
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia
Revolutionary Organization 17 November
Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front
Revolutionary People’s Struggle
Sendero Luminoso
Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement
United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia
and believe me the there are lots more.
They should be treated just like al-Qaida”
Nepal – Maoist rebels are constently bombing places western media other then the BBC pays little attention to it.
“Northern Ireland has to win the title of most terrorist groups:
PIRA(provisional Irish Republican Army)
CIRA(Continuity Irish Republican Army)
RIRA(Real Irish Republican Army)
INLA(Irish National Liberation Army)
Fianna na hEireann
IPLO(Irish People’s Liberation Organisation)
Saor Eire
UDA(Ulster Defence Army)
UVF(Ulster Volunteer Force)
UFF(Ulster Freedom Fighters)
Red Hand Defenders
Red Hand Commandos
LVF(Loyalist Volunteer Force)
Orange Volunteers
And a few others hanging around.
PIRA has worked with FARC, PLO, ETA, Libya and countless European terrorist groups.”
Try these links
State Department Foreign Terrorist Organization list (http://usembassy.state.gov/posts/pk1/wwwh04043003.html)
State Department terrorist list background information (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2002/html/19991.htm)
Coming to India,is ULFA in assam a muslim group..Is LTTE muslim group???
We see and hear what we look forward to..Just bcoz those guys dn’t quote random verses from their scriptures,and since ‘muslim’ ones quote,obviously out of context,there is no lesser evil in comparison..Isn’t it??
Please check the link..
Is Terrorism a muslim monopoly?
And Prabha,thank you for asking such a wonderful qstn:) Do visit again..
Hi Nimitha,
That list you put up above is quite big in text.
But,Take the sum of Terrorists(head count) in all of the above outfits.Muslim Terrors count is way ahead.
You don’t believe me?you need statistics?
So I did a bit of goggling on ‘How Many Muslims Are Terrorists?’
for a statistical information do check the link below:-
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Terrorism_Timeline.Islam
Following is an extract from the above article and its no way my personal opinion or inference.I am just copy-pasting it..
“……that equates to a minimum of 180 million potential jihadists and a maximum of 225 million…”
Thats a huge number isint it?
Jihad:the fight in the way of Allah for protection of ur religion and cuntry.
If following acts are comitted, there is no jihad:
1. Harm to trees, fields, crops, houses, animals, one’s property or religious places.
2. Kill those who are peace loving and do not rise against u.
3. Kill innocent people such as women, children, old people and unarmed males.
These are only sum things which if done intentionally are to be repented forever by any muslim. Sadly known, these terrorists are doing all these intentionally and so they aren’t muslims. Hope u understood the concept of jihad now.
It is not just the difference. It is the “professed” ideology. All Muslim terrorists cry themselves hoarse that they are Muslims. The Non Muslim terrorist organizations do not wear their religion on their sleeves quite the same way.
Also, many of them are not so active any more
@Prabha,this is not an argument of statistics..Even I can make up statistics..even in this post,internet has many posts,especially about lot of muslims getting killed..But careful analysis tells me that its all propaganda,and so I don’t quote those sources(those sources that
exxagerate torturing of muslims)….There is plenty of sites who spread false information,even false Quran with twisted verses..such is the virtual world.A person,who just started,being on the shore,sees lot of hate and propaganda..and I request you to read more as to see for yourself what is right and wrong..
Do you want me bring me proof ‘showing ‘ your information false?..For sure,I can grab it from site..But then again,its propaganda,and not a ‘fact’..The truth lies in between these two lines and it is for us to use our knowledge,wisdom ,logic and reasoning to judge what is right and wrong..
The same way you find it difficult to find my data convincing,I claim that your data is just false propaganda..
Prabha,you can find lot of hate against Islam and Christianity once you enter the religion and spirituality area of inetrnet..you’ll be amazed to see for yourself how much hate and time and effort people put into it..you find lot of sites as faithfreeodm,answering-faithfreedom,answering-islam,answering-christianity..many many,both sides portraying others as devils and doomeres of the world..As I said,when you read something,read the otherside too and find the truth that lies somewhere in between both these propagandas..
It is plain fact that Islamic terrorism is happening..But to what extent.what is before and after it..That is where I beg to differ with you.Trust me,I’ve been into these stuff since more than an year,min 5hrs a day and I can tell you who is spreading Islamic propaganda and who is doing it otherwise..
Its really confusing and tangled,as we say it a web..It is indeed very hard to know for yourself who is right and wrong..I am not telling that your statistics is ‘right; or ‘wrong’,as it is purely a subjective thing..I just want to tell you and warn you that there is lot of false information,even false Quran out there..Just try to know the otherside too..
When these websites quote Quran “Slay all infidels”,there find it easy not to make refernce to history and context during which the verse was reaveled..Quran was sent down over 23 yrs..But most peoplehave not time to look into it..I agree there is no need for people to look into what Quran says,but to look what muslims are doing..Because there happened to have some rotten apples,there is no point in exxageration..
claer one view plz….
those who dont follow
quran aren’t muslims.
Nimmy,
There is no doubt that there are on the internet many sites that spew venom against Islam. Happily, Muslims have realized the danger of this and are coming up with sites of their own to counter this.
However, a lot of effort will be expended forwarding cogent arguments against what all these people have to say. I am very glad that you are studying these things in depth because committed intellectuals are needed to combat this menace
I couldn’t read the whole of the blog.But have touched most of the controversial parts of it.I am not going to take any side on this topic. 🙂 . Still I am doing my part to enlighten all peace loving souls.
You have begun the discussion with Jammu and Kashmir and then finally ended up discussing Kashmiri pleas only.
Recently I saw a documentary on J&K. It mainly conveyed that there were once places crowded with kashmiri pundits, not any more.Also the new generation is not aware of such places or even any descendent of kashmiri pundits.
Moreover the new generation is now viewing the Indian Government( also Pak ) as an alien bodies trying to control their internal affairs.So there comes the third front J&k Liberalisation Party demanding an independent state.
I guess if we allow these leaders to take some decision ,after 20 years again there will be another liberation movement demanding something else, who knows they might demand more land quoting there is less space for them to develop as most of the places is covered under snow.What will we do then ?
Since the state is not ready to honour their own kings decision, the basic solution is stick to Indias famous “Non alignment treaty”.Whomever wants to take control, let them play all the havoc and come to a decision.So that we can reduce the ever increasing annual defence budget from 300000 crores to 100000 crores and use the rest of the money to do more development activities.
Also we should think of the below point also….
Do you know what happened to U.S.S.R ( former Russia) ?
Now the glory of USSR is buried deep into history books.Well we all know how it happened and what factors initiated it. Let India also be split into 30+ countries based on caste and language. I wish J&k to be the the first one to be “liberalised” .Let the best brains get out of this country and settle somewhere else.(Atleast we will have more quota of visa’s).But within 50 years, India is going to be indirectly colonised by the powerful economies in the world. Are we ready for that ?
My answer is no, not because I am a patriotic, bcoz I dont have a good brain to sell to some other country. So I need to stay over here and I cant keep quiet when things are being written like this here and there.
Remember the story of Camel and Arab.
@Sanjay,your comment makes lot of sense..Thanks for sharing..Im sure all readers,atleast I myself is enlightened more:) ( i think i messed with grammar..phew)
Do visit again..
Milind Kher???? Enlighten Me!!!
I am at total loss at what you are trying to imply? Are you saying that our Indian inhabitants of kargil will have to join Pakistan against their will & that’s the reason why your heart goes out to them, for they shall have to pay the price of adoring India inspite of being Muslims, or what? (Remember it were the locals of kargil who tipped the Pakistan Armies presence in kargil) & how come you say-‘. I wish there had been many, many more such all over the country’ are you suggesting there aren’t many or just a handful of them? Huh? How sure are you of your assumptions? & what possibly according to you could be the reasons of them not daring to be vocal?
Lastly, ‘If they were, the very perception of Muslims would change radically’.
What is this perception? & by stating this sentence separately, is it an after-thought or do you wish to convey, that this perception shall change for the better or are you thanking the stars that they are not speaking their minds in the open? My small brain can’t make heads or tail of what you mean. I again implore you to please Enlighten me as I do not possess the intellect of unraveling high thoughts nor do I have the ability to read between the lines, do i? kindly do reply in plain & simple terms.
Aam Insaan,
The people of Kargil are true patriots. They love India and want to be with India. They are peaceful and do not appreciate the presence of militants in Kashmir.
If every Muslim were to be thus seen as a patriot, it would dispel the notion held by many that Muslims are not patriots.
As to why the people in Kargil are not so vocal, they cannot be, with such a huge presence of militants.
The sarcasm of your note does not elude me, but it is OK
Milind,
The people of Kargil are simple & intelligent human beings, irrespective of cast, creed or culture & care two hoots for patriotic jingoism, militants or rabble rousing communal & fundamentalist forces, Plus they have their country’s Brave soldiers to defend them for all times to come from militant’s & ‘foreigners’ whoever, so what’s there for them to be vocal about-
anyways you weren’t referring to them for not being vocal, so either refer back to quote No.23 or rephrase it, I don’t care because ‘you’ have conveniently ‘eluded’ in replying my innocent queries.
As a born citizen of India, I am not aware of any sort of ‘Patriotic Certification’ being issued by the Indian state as such, nor is it enshrined in The Constitution nor mentioning of issuing such certificates (for e.g. Like birth certificate, school leaving cert. etc.) in the courts of law, thus I would prove to be worthless to dispel ‘notions held’ as cited by you, & I thank the Almighty for creating me so blissfully unworthy.
Aahhhh but why don’t you go for such Certifications to your erstwhile counterparts ‘comrades in arm’-
The masquerading RSS, VHP, Self-Anointed Patriotism Certifiers, rest assured they eagerly await you with open arms & they would be most delighted to not only dispel all notions, but gleefully more
& do hasten up & join them for very soon, We the Indians are going to declare them as an anti-national & terrorist outfit, then don’t blame me if you miss the Bus.
—- HAHA, This is what I call sarcasm & you invited it.
Nimmy,
We should be exteremely proud to be Indians..atleast we have got freedom to express our thoughts even though its not in best of the national interest …
Its irresponsible to make statements about another partition…it will make the country and the responsible religion’s existence more worse..
I ve hed French vll argue if u question his patriotism ..and Americans like to talk abt Sex and War but for Indians its their “RELIGION”..
So this thread wont stop here 🙂
kashmir r never be a part of india and pakistani.kashmir iz a indepent country but as for as paskistani iz conserried pak always support our movement
dear riyazreshi,
ksahmir was always part of india,and all forefathers of kashmirian were hindus.Don’t hazitated to accept it.
bobby
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🙂 -Nimmy
yh you was there when this happend init you chat ber shit
HI,
THIS IS JATINDER SINGH CHAUHAN,KASHMIR WAS ALWAYS A PART OF INDIA WE LOVE KASHMIRIS AS WELL.
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Welcome here 🙂 Yes,I agree with you.I had my reservations earlier,but now I am very much sure that Kashmir belongs to India and that Kashmiris are dear to us as any other people from different states.Do come again.. -Nimmy
kashmir is not a part of india, it is illeagally occupied by india. girls get raped in occupied kashmir and innocent people die at th hands of the indian army everyday. india should live in realiy and let all ofkashmir be azad, indian media shows even a part of pakistan as their’ well all i have to say is get a life. wikepedia? any body can put anything on it, show me real facts. india should live in reality stop trying to make pakistan a part of india again, pakistan is our land and its paak (clean) so live in peace and let us do the same and quit being jelous of pakistan.
well for the information of all those who are here arguing for us, Kashmiri’s, I want to add that Akbar was defeated twice by Yousuf Shah, and Akbar captured Yousuf by trickery. his grave is in your India…not in Kashmir.
and religion is no basis for nationhood..dt way we all are africans…and should go there..
Kashmir was…is…and will be FREE!!!
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Whom do you want to be freed from?India? or Indians? Or Indian Army? And you wanna join Pakistan,a failed state? I have no idea how many sane people in Kashmir want to move away from India..But I am not blind enough not to understand what Indian army is doing there.. Agreed there is somethig wrong,but is the solution,to move away and have no integrity at all.. -Nimmy
Why will we lose integrity by moving away from India.And who told you that Kashmiri’s want to join Pakistan.Don’t see Hindi movies so much.Last year lakhs of kashmiri’s protested against India and they didn’t say we want to go to Pakistan.
and we want to free Kashmir from India…and that includes army, administration and rule. its a basic right. you cant bring sentiments here.why will India or any other country rule us when we were n are free.
P.S. all sane and insane people want to move away from the colonial rule of India.
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🙂 Fine,best wishes..I don’t want to make any rude comments,but i will always wish that Kashmiris would identify themselves as prud indians and that indian govt will take enough steps to cultivate trust and happiness in their lives.. -Nimmy
Hi Kashmiri,
I just want to know that
why all kashmiri protest in POK for azad kashmir first? becoz it is actually they all favour pakistan and not India and also the actual feeling is not kashmiri it is only islamism
i can say this becoz in 1987 all kashmiri pandits were pushed down toward jammu from kashmir why??
becoz they think kashmiri means only muslim and not hindu pandit 🙂
dont worry india is not fool
it understands everything
@adnan..Welcome here 🙂
I don’t want to argue,but let us be plain that Kashmir is part of India and Kashmiris are as much our sisters and brothers as like anybody from rest of India..Maybe Pakistan should learn to keep peace in the land what they have now,before crying and fighting for more Indian soil..
Good day..
As a Westerner who has been in Kashmir and was there when the fighting broke out in 1989, I would like to say this: After long discussions with my Kashmiri friends as we remained under curfew for 5 days, the true issue is not whether Kashmir should be part of India or Pakistan, but that it should be allowed its independence. The Raja of Kashmir procrastinated in 1947 exactly for that reason, he believed that Kashmir should be independent. The independence of Kashmir was stolen by Pakistani invasion and sealed by the Indian army. It is but a victim of the Empires of India, of China, and of Pakistan who each seek to control that which is not theirs, based on the colonial power of a an Empire much mightier and more global than any of theirs will ever be. Religion has nothing to do with it. Kashmir wishes to be independent of its massive neighbours, not partitioned by them. There will always be problems there until this happens. History is on their side, it will happen one day. Namaste and Salam.
Dear Tim,
Congratulations for your true understanding of the real kashmiri view point in just 5 days which the Indian masses are not able to understand since more than fifty years. Let the common sense prevail which is so un common among Indians and and they realise and free Kashmir before all kashmiris get killed at the hands of Indian occupying forces and all our mothers and sisters dignity get saved.
Long live KASHMIR.
i would also thank tim for sayn the truth but this people wont understand it since both countrys are robing us since day 1 and i am suprised that we got a western brother helping us. thank you very much
I AM VERY MUCH THANKFUL TO THOSE AND I RESPECT THEM WHO NEVER DIFFERENTIATE ON THE BASIS OF RELIGION,AND WHYWE SHOULD.WE R ALL CREATED BY THE SAME GOD ,NO MATTER SOME BLACK,SOME WHITE AND SOME WHEAT COLOURED.
I BELEIVE KASHMIR WILL BE A VERY GOOD COUNTRY IF IT WAS A COUNTRY BEFORE OR IT WILL BE A VERY GOOD INDIAN STATE IF IT WAS EARLIER
I have full sympathy for kashmiris,
But what is wrong of it being the state of india?
in 1947 pakistan first attcked kashmir not india
but still kashmiri people had supported terrorism of pakistan against india in kashmir valley.
From ancient time kashmir is the integrated part of indian culture as you can see it from the number of temples in kashmir so what is wrong of it being part of indian state rathen that a new country?
ma frend you people are more then welcum for a visit but not to own the place or call it a part of india even doh we got muslim and hindus in kasmire we will be proble more then happy if we lot would be a independend country.
its not like we sed we will tell all the hindu brothers and sisters to move out or go india we just want to live togter like we are all living in the uk
to everyone who cares about kashmir, kashmiris, azadi and patronism…
if we admit the point of indepandence of kashmir or say kashmiris, – when pan india was released from british rule they separate us on basis of religion, and we took it many muslim opted for pak. and not all, there were pakistan and india- here india as non united form and situation in kashmir was no different than any of other indian state/province, politically. we united and at last kashmir too. how comes india ruled kashmir or we occupied kashmir. in that sense india surely ruled junagadh and hyderabad, too, as foreign or out comer.
well i dont believe in religion but conditions are surely led by religion/religions.
kashmiris deserve indipandence in terms of what?
ya i m also seriously concern about kashmiris’ basic human rights. they deserve a normal life. ther is presence of militants and hence there is strong presence and activity of indian military[not because we want to OCCUPY kashmir].
ya indian military do harass kashmiris but do u think condition can be changed if kashmir state get release?
even all india pakistan even china; agree not to bother kashmir, how long azad kashmir can hold its indepandence.
i m afraid kashmiri people can ever desrve life in kashmir.
Thank you all for keeping the discussion alive..Due to real-life time constraints,though highly interested in participating ,I cannot join you guys. I am sorry for that,but please keep sharing your thoughts.
From my part,i still hold the opinion that Kashmir was ,is and will be part of India,as I think that it is the only feasible,or maybe only practical, solution. Without being a part of India,other nations would swallow Kashmir,and their dream as an independent nation is a unreal and not a long standing one.
Good day to all
Here is a Kashmiri saying:
No matter what you all say, we will get the independence. Watch us…you have lost the moral war and now be prepared to lose the real one too.
Most Indians just don’t get it. No independence movement has EVER died down…history and even superpowers will vouch for that. You can sure kill another 100,000 kashmiris but bow we never will.
Here is some food for thought…Do you really think there is a single Kashmiri muslim who considers himself an Indian at heart?….You can include your favorite Omar Abdullah in your analysis as well….yes the guy who screams that he is an Indian. The answer will be a resounding NO! Go figure.
well yes kasmiris deserve a life with fredom or say indepandence.
go get your freedom depart from the nation. but i m wondering if you can hold that more than a year…
hat do you think does idian government care about strategic view of kashmir? even why r we we fighting for those people who think pakistan will not threat them…
a long long
Pakistan – “a place full of terrorists.”
I think india should give back Kashmir to Pakistan & not only Kashmir but also Jamo, Juna Ghar, State of Hyderabad as these all territories were part of Pakistan as per partition agreement, more over India should give Indian Bengol to Bangladesh, after this India should claim as democratic country.
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🙂 ,As an Indian,I have nothing to say except to give you that pity look..why not make the whole earth as the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan’ ..That seems a better and viable option to me.. -Nimmy
And yes,maybe Pakistan should better learn to manage what they have now,before being greedy to grab others land.
Today a young Army captain was martyred fighting militants in Sopore. 26 year old Devinder Singh Jassare died fighting the terrorists in Kashmir. Also, today, sachin became the first batsman to score a double century in ODI. The websites and newspapers will carry Sachin Tendulkar’s feat in the front page tommorow. But Capt Devinder did not get even a front page mention in most of the national dailies today. We are a nation of ‘fools’ who don’t know who are real heroes are. We are more bothered about an idiotic movie and some political party banning it, so much c\so that college students start communities in facebook supporting the movie. Where are the citizens of India now? Where is the candle light vigil? was Capt Devinder of no value to us?
i tink you mans shat ber shit
ask all the kasmires in kasmire and the will say the same ting as me
we want independent we and on india or pakistan side so fack off and let us life as kasmires
since we are our own nation and a different country… if you lot are not awar kasmire was 5000 years before india.
and we kasmires dont need any ones help or goverment suport we can look after our self.
if there is any quesions you wana ask me and why we kasmire dont want to take any ones side please coment and i will let you know.
We all know that with time new deomographics, situations and culture are evolved. The same happened to our nations. Years of Islamic conquest, barbarism and violence altered the boundaries of this nation. The so called Pakistan was formed of People who were not brave enough to fight the swords of Islamic Plunderers and meekly gave in by becoming Moslems only to save their skin, but unfortunately they lost and forgot their roots. That is why its a nation of cowards and divulge in terrorism and other cowardly acts of terror.
As a nation enough is enough not an inch of our land should be compromised…If anybody has a problem then they are free to go away… we will not give our land anymore…go and live in Pakistan like Mohajirs and then will they realise the glory of our land… if we as a nation is tolerant do not take it that we are weak… the day we answer it would be over for you guys… so let there be peace, harmony and no more bloodshed of innocents.
india was a part of kashmir and kashmir was never a part of india today india is the second largest growing economy in the world. this happened just in 60 years after independence, keeping in view that india was a country of saints, sadhus and beggars and still remains the same.it was then the world aid espacially help extended by russia which helped india to pull itself from the hell. regarding kashmir it is bestowed by allmighty allah in every respect so no one need to wory and it is easy for us to breathe in free environment than to succumb to the indiain forced occupation, just vacate from kashmir and it is every ones basic right to get freedom.
I am not some one who says Kashmir an integral part of India. This is fall out of Nehru’s stupidity influenced by western liberal concept and Gandhi’s version of harmony in society. Both did not know what Islam is and how fascistic it is and how it can not co-exist with others. So it is only a matter of time this fascist behavior of Muslims shows up. With fatalistic and supremacist philosophy and perceived victim status terrorism can never be defeated in Kashmir, at least by methods resorted to by successive governments. Right now nothing is certain, instability will only increase in this country because of Islamic jihad in this nation abetted by corrupt and ever ready to appease minorities attitude present in Media.
I can only laugh at and pity those who say if we be nice and terrorism will stop, not having an grain of knowledge of Islam, even after the captured terrorists directly say they are fighting for Islam and fighting to make India an Islamic republic, those soothe sayers will only bring confusion to the people.
Here is a website to get some more information on the history of Kashmir..pre-wikipedia information 🙂
http://didyouknow.org/history/kashmir/
I was also intrigued by this place due to the current situation and amazing history and started doing some research and that is when i came across this link.
Enjoy!
being a resident of J&K,i & we must be given right to self determination as we deserve that…
for above statement we all are ready to cry & die which hardly matters fa us regarding this case…
we being freedom fighters,call us terrorists no & no worries….
our beloved messenger(pbuh) garentees fa freedom & how could we stop fighting fa it…..
listen,yes you,by hook or crook we will get our right……
……..apni aaazadi ko moimin hargiz bula sakta nahi….sar kta sakta ai moomin sar juka sakta nahi