“How do you, as Muslim, see me and others like me in the light of the teachings of the Qur’an?”

Nimmy,

My first question to you:

I am a non-Muslim. I do not see the Qur’an as the revealed word of God. In fact, I don’t subscribe to the idea of a God separate from myself at all. How do you, as Muslim, see me and others like me in the light of the teachings of the Qur’an? And I want your honest opinion, not something some Islamic scholar has written.

 

I hardly copy paste from some random website..I copy paste only when I feel that the intended message is better conveyed by somebody else and I provide links too. I don’t think that is a crime..

To me,religion is a personal business.I don’t believe in knocking others doors and preaching them.If they are happy with their current state of spiritualily,I am none to go and give them lecture on my religion..On the other side,if they have problems with their own spirituality,they will search for truth(a subjective term) and sharing views with them is a pleasure..But I don’t think I have reached that level,as to answer or assist them..This is my first attempt..Pls bear with me..

 

As for the first part of the question,there is no complusion that you believe that Quran is from Allah or is it a handwork of Prophet(pbuh).The Quran is written in beautiful prose that continues to be marveled at by the experts of the Arabic language. But it is not merely a literary masterpiece. The Quran contains scientific facts and explanations that fascinate scientists of all fields. But it is not an encyclopedia of science. The Quran mentions stories of people and places in the past with vivid detail. But it is not merely a book of history. Quran is from Allah and we muslims believe so due to solid reasons..

 

How do we know that a revelation like the Qur’an is the word of God?

The criteria for truth can be easily understood by all:-

1.RATIONAL TEACHINGS: Since God bestowed reason and intellect on mankind, it is our duty to use it to distinguish truth from falsehood. True undistorted revelation from God must be rational and can be reasoned out by all unbiased minds.

2. PERFECTION: Since God is all perfect, His revelation must be perfect and accurate, free from mistakes, omissions, interpolations and multiplicity of versions. It should be free from contradictions in its narration.

3. NO MYTHS OR SUPERSTITIONS: True revelation from God is free from myths or superstitions that degrade the dignity of God or man.

4. SCIENTIFIC: Since God is the Creator of all knowledge, true revelation is scientific and can with-stand the challenge of science at alltimes.

5. PROPHECY: God is the Knower of the past, present and future. Thus His word of prophecies in His revelation will be fulfilled as prophesied.

6. INIMITABLE BY MAN: True revelation from God is infallible and cannot be imitated by man. God’s true revelation is a living miracle, an open Book challenging all mankind to see and prove for themselves.

 

The question of whether Quran satisfies the above criteria is to be answered in an individual level and every human being is entitiled to have their own opinions..and I respect your opinion,but you too need to respect my choice to belive in what I feel right.Isn’t that what we call a free world?

For the second part of the question,since we are talking about Quran,i’ll have to give a Quranic answer.Also,my answer may not be exhaustive..

 

My faith tells me to treat every human in this world with justice and kindnes,without any discrimination

  •  4:135 O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
  • 5:8 O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.
  • 60:8 (God does not forbid you to turn in friendship towards) for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably.
  • 60:9 God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers!

     

My faith tells me not to argue with others on lame arguments as ‘My God is best,your God false’ bla bla bla

  • 2:139 “Do you argue with us about GOD, when He is our Lord and your Lord? We are responsible for our deeds, and you are responsible for your deeds. To Him alone we are devoted.

There are many verses telling me how to deal with non muslims

  • 3:64 Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).
  • 29:46 Do not argue with the people of the scripture except in the nicest possible manner and say, “We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters.” 
  •  

  • 9:6  And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
  • 22:67 To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord: for thou art assuredly on the Right Way 

No muslim,even the Prophet has the right to compel somebody to believe in Islam.

  • 2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. 

 

  • 88:24 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
  • 24:54 “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

 

Allah Almighty will admit to Paradise those whom He loves because of their righteous work and belief:

  • “O mankind! [This includes all races and all nations] We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)”
     Hadiths tell me to deal with non muslims,with justice and fairness.. 

    • “He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet.” (Bukhari, Muslim)
    • “Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God.” (Bukhari)
    • “He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement.” (Bukhari)
    • “Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him.” (Al-Mawardi)
    • “Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.” (Bukhari)

     

     

     P.S :I am feeling very uneasy using terms muslims,non muslims ,you,me, etc  etc..At times I feel religion creates more of divisions..grr..And thats why I  don’t take religion too serious..But then again,my faith is absolute..Err,is that contradictory ? ***scratches head***

References:

http://www.harunyahya.com/justice1.php

http://www.missionislam.com/discover/compulsion.htm

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    • Dawn
    • September 20th, 2008

    “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper” (2:120)

    wallahi they ask such questions while they bear a deep grudge from inside against Muslims, may Allah guide those who earn Thine anger and those who go astray,,

    • Vineeth
    • September 20th, 2008

    Unfortunately or rather sadly human tendency is to impose!!
    One person of one religion imposing his ideas on other.
    Male impostion on women and vice versa too!!
    One country’s imposition on other etc etc!

    The day people relaise this and stop imposing their ideas on others, PEACE will prevail!!

    • Nimmy
    • September 20th, 2008

    @Dawn,I agree,most people ask ‘qstns’ ,while they hold pre conceived notions and prejudices..that hold true for people of all faiths,including muslims..Still ,I find there is no reason ‘not to answer’..people with open minded can read and understand for themselves..

    • Nimmy
    • September 20th, 2008

    @Vineeth,you are 101% true..Human nature is to impose..We see it in all facets of life..But there should be a way out,which i am not sure of :-s

    • Milind Kher
    • September 20th, 2008

    Nimmy,

    The best way to avoid being imposed upon is to stand up for yourself. This is something all of us need to do, across agender and creed.

    At the same time, we must uphold others’ rights to stand for themselves too.

    • nandu
    • September 20th, 2008

    Nimmy,

    I don’t think you understood my question.

    I do not think you simply copy paste from another website. You may have gone through it in detail. But I want YOUR opinion, not what some so-called authority says about non-believers. How do YOU view a non-Muslim such as myself, who does not believe in the Qur’an?

    • nandu
    • September 20th, 2008

    Nimmy,

    I must clarify that I am not asking you to tell me how the Qur’an or the Hadiths instruct you to treat non-believers. I am asking you your mental attitude to non-believers.

    • Another Kafir
    • September 20th, 2008

    Nimitha, I am glad to read that you do not like to preach or anything. Would you then be sponsoring a religious group which would do preaching as a part of their activities. Or, would you actively support preaching?

    Secondly, my personal experience stands that religious people and especially the muslims are completely immune to logic. You say that there are some awesome scientific facts and that there are rational teachings in the Quran. Most other religions also think so. The question is, why not let children be brought up without religion and let them discover the truth for themselves when they are older. The reason I say it is because, as children we believe anything and everthing they are told and they hold that close as an undeniable truth. That is the reason that logic can not reach these people. They do not even seem to see the great logical and rational things that you say are in Islam. Incidently, in Islamic law, the boys who have not reached puberty are not beheaded, the state waits till he attains puberty and then if he maintains his position he is killed. Now some societies are changing, but not many.

    • Nimmy
    • September 20th, 2008

    I am asking you your mental attitude to non-believers.

    lol..thatz simple..I view non muslims as people lke me who have same color of blood as mine..I see them as individuals who ahve attitudes and opinions and not groups who flock together..I don’t label people or stereotype them by judging a few people’s actions..I dn’t expect a Christian to justify himself based on Bible,simply bcoz there are christian criminals around.I dn’t expect hindus to justify and swear based on Gita.simply bcoz there are shitty hindus put there.As simple as that..

    Muslim or non muslims,people are not woth my time and attention if their intentions and actions are evil..Muslims or non muslims,people are worth my respect if they beahve good ..Period..This is my thought..I guess any average person thinks the way i do..

    The term ‘non-believers’ is lame..don’t you believe in something else than my faith?

    • Nimmy
    • September 20th, 2008

    Ak,

    Would you then be sponsoring a religious group which would do preaching as a part of their activities. Or, would you actively support preaching?

    What the heck is that? I can’t and i don’t read between lines..If you have something to say,say it straight forward..

    my personal experience stands that religious people and especially the muslims are completely immune to logic.

    you are free to believe what you feel like doing..I care least even if you publish a PHd paper on ‘muslims are least logical people’

    You say that there are some awesome scientific facts and that there are rational teachings in the Quran. Most other religions also think so.

    So what?I don’t mind what other religious books say..I even dn’t have time to read my own book..SO i dn’t mind others business..

    The question is, why not let children be brought up without religion and let them discover the truth for themselves when they are older.

    Yeah true,let all kids grow up with no rules of code of conduct around them,so that at the end of the day,they become a messy person..Great idea..(this doesn’t imply that atheists have loose morals..But nobody is a born-atheist right?)

    The reason I say it is because, as children we believe anything and everthing they are told and they hold that close as an undeniable truth. That is the reason that logic can not reach these people.

    Once you learn A ,B,C,D ..you can read and understand for yourself and change religion if your spirituality demands so..For that,it is lame not to teach the kid anything about God..Let them choose what they want once they ahve the ability to understand for themselves..To seperate cculture,tradition and religion from a kid is as lame as growing an embryo in a lab,in a freezer..free or immune from all enviornmental factors..lol..

    They do not even seem to see the great logical and rational things that you say are in Islam.

    Fine,i have no problem with that..If you dn’t get conceived,that is your problem,not mine..Not all people in this small world think alike..and i believe that is what makes the world a beautiful one..

    Incidently, in Islamic law, the boys who have not reached puberty are not beheaded, the state waits till he attains puberty and then if he maintains his position he is killed.

    I have no idea what you are talking about..If you have problem with mainstream,ask them..Here,i am sharing MY views..

    Now some societies are changing, but not many

    lol..you talk to me as if muslims and islam is the only cause of trouble in this world..I suggest you to make sure atleast your own community behaves well..And i guess that would make much better sense if people point fingers at others,only to realize that 3 more fingers are pointing at yourself..

    • Milind Kher
    • September 20th, 2008

    @All,

    Religion being a very personal issue, let people follow any religion they want, let them even be atheists or agnostics.

    As I have always maintained, let the judgment of whose religion/theology is right be decided by God.

    Let us, as human beings, be honest, sincere and kind.

    • Vineeth
    • September 20th, 2008

    The funniest fact is most humans cant be called “humans ” itself these days, by the way people are behaving.

    As I see it humans are different from other forms of life (plants, animals etc) because of a set of qualities like ability to love their bretheren, compassion etc etc.

    If people start quabbling among each other and killing other person because he doesn’t agree with my belief (whichever it may be) then I don’t see how a human being is different from an animal.

    From my personal study & understanding, the solution to this is only “sincere prayer” by all like minded people, to solve this issue.This may seem funny to others but trust me it works.

    Factually i don’t see any other governmental or organisational method in which such a global issue can be solved.

    • Nimmy
    • September 20th, 2008

    Milind,

    Let us, as human beings, be honest, sincere and kind.

    Exactly..

    People are concerned about lingusitic,verbal,adjective and pronoun issues of Quran ,easily forgetting that their neighbour is under poverty line..

    Even there are many crappy muslims who judge people based on length of beard,eye brow shaped or not bla bla bla..and i find it very funny and annnoying..Allah is not sitting there counting the number or length of beard..

    I wish people had better concentrated on more realistic isuues..

    • Nimmy
    • September 20th, 2008

    Vineeth,

    From my personal study & understanding, the solution to this is only “sincere prayer” by all like minded people, to solve this issue.This may seem funny to others but trust me it works.

    I agree,but we have to try our part too in the form of corrective actions..Sitting in a/c room and expecting government to do something is lame..If we want a change,we should act ourselves right?

    Keep coming and share your thoughts..good day to all

    I have to go..Iftar time….

    • Another Kafir
    • September 20th, 2008

    Nimitha, it is all crystal clear. Thanks.

  1. If atheism is defined as lacking a belief in gods, then all children are born that way, since they lack any beliefs at all.
    A kid can’t survive and grow up without learning tradition, culture and a moral code of some sort, which basically is: How should one treat others? But this is entirely separate from religion, and many children develop their moral code of conduct with no idea of religion.

    When the kid meets a mullah who says “kill others”, or meets Nimmy who says “respect others”, the kid accepts whichever matches its own morals; still nothing to do with religion, which the kid has not yet been exposed to.

    The kid relies on its moral code to determine how to view others, and also relies on its moral code to judge other’s interpretations of their religion. If the kid bothers, it relies on its moral code to interpret the religion or the book itself, so the religion is kind of superfluous, really.

    When is the kid islamic?
    shares neither the culture and traditions, nor the moral code: not muslem.
    shares the culture and traditions, and the moral code, of the mullahs?
    shares the cultures and traditions, and the moral code, of Nimmy?
    shares Nimmy’s moral code, but not the culture and traditions?

    • nandu
    • September 21st, 2008

    Nimmy,

    From your reply, I gather that you don’t judge others based on their beliefs.

    Now, if you believe that the Qur’an is the revealed word of God, and that it should be followed verbatim, does not that make the people who do not follow it sinners?

  2. Some people may say something and mean the same thing or similar to what a ‘true believer’ said. Only Allah knows, and we are all striving on the Path.

    • Nimmy
    • September 21st, 2008

    @Watercat,I am afraid you are making sweeping generalizations,based on violent acts by a minority..I am not an angel or something too good like that..I guess almost all people i met all my life,think the same way as i do..Of course i ahve met extremists from many sectors too..But since majority of them have average levels of morals and code of conduct,there isn’t an issue about whom the kid will follow..

    regarcding the multiple choice,i dn’t know how is mullah preaching evil,even worth to be included in the list..Only a handful of people preach haterd(and that hold true for some christian and hindu preists)..Sideline them,isn’t the solution as simple as that..I understand what you are saying..But if we,the majority,who have respect for each other,come out of our shells and talk to people,wouldn’t the haters run away by themselves?

    • Nimmy
    • September 21st, 2008

    @Nandu,I can only say that Muslims who dn’t obey Allah are sinners..As for the rest,Allah knows best ..He knows what is the intentions in each person’s heart..

    I dn’t belive that Allah will sent all muslims to heaven and sent all non muslims to hell..Each person will be rewarded according to what he did..If he did good,Allah will reward him and vice versa..God is just and merciful..

    And as for pinpointing and comparing each and evrey rule in organized religions is a lame process..Once a friend asked me,’If God in every religion is the same,why do we have different rules”.I dn’t know how to answer such qstns..Maybe a agnostic can answer that..

    • Nimmy
    • September 21st, 2008

    Maria,welcome:)

    Yes,i agree.we humans are not qualified enough to judge others..

    • Raj
    • September 21st, 2008

    Quotes from Quran

    “Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah’s wrath.” (2:61)

    Jews are like apes:
    “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.” (2:64)

    Jews were turned to apes and pigs:

    Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path! (5:60)

    Jews are senseless:
    The Jews are devoid of sense. There is a grievous punishment awaiting them. Satan tells them not to believe so they will end up in Hell.” (59:14)

    The disbelievers wish that you would disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become all alike. Make not, therefore, friends with any of them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah. If they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take no friend or helper from among them except such of them as are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact…therefore, if they do not restrain their hands, seize them and kill them wherever you find them. Against these we have given you clear authority. (4:89-90)

    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)

    But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay the jizya, then open the way for them (9:5)

    Faith which is based on the belief that My God is better then other gods.. and Who s not with me will go to hell .. will lead to violence ..

    Self illusion leads to violence too .

    • Nimmy
    • September 21st, 2008

    Raj,Welcome to my blog 🙂

    The verses you listed have been dealt with in previous posts..I suggest you to go through the comments in past posts,if you are interested in finding the truth..

    Faith which is based on the belief that My God is better then other gods.. and Who s not with me will go to hell .. will lead to violence ..

    Self illusion leads to violence too

    Agree,but did i say so anywhere???

    • Raj
    • September 21st, 2008

    Thank you Nimmi
    its pleasure to red your blog ..

    I read your previous blog ..
    and I dont think that perception leads to change in understanding in This case .. Because

    the Qur’an, on repeated occasions reiterates its claim to be a clear book (5:15) easy to understand (44:58, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40) explained in detail
    (6:114), conveyed clearly, (5:16, 10:15) with no doubt in it (2:1), with clear ordinances, (98:3), of divine nature, (10:37) and full of wisdom (36:2).
    If that is the case then what shall we make of the above
    claims of the clarity of the Qur’an?

    the Qur’an adamantly denies being a book of poetry. “It is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe”. (69:41) And, “We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; it is nothing but a reminder and a plain Qur’an.” (36:69)
    You see?,The Qur’an claims to be plain and simple ..

    Every Religion has old belif systems and its important that we shall reform it .. Hinduism had its share of revolution in 18th century with Raja Rammohan Roy and other reformers ..
    Christianity lost its dictatorship during renaissance .

    The reformation in Islam will start only when the problems are accepted ..

    • nandu
    • September 21st, 2008

    Nimmy,

    Sorry if I am being tiresome with so many questions. This is just my style. I keep on asking questions to myself too: only by questioning do we reach the truth, in my opinion.

    Now you say Muslims who don’t obey Allah are sinners, but you can’t say in case of others. You also believe that good people will be rewarded in the afterlife and others will be punished regardless of religion. Now what about a person, born as a Muslim, who does not follow any of the laws laid down in the Qur’an, but is otherwise a nice person-how will God treat him? Remember, he has lived a blameless life, only he did not follow the rules laid down by God: which were revealed to a very small percentage of humanity, anyway.

    If God is just and merciful, will he be punished for rejecting Islam? What do you think?

    • Nimmy
    • September 21st, 2008

    Nandu,I don’t know why it seem complicated to you.By rejecting Allah,isn’t he out of fold of islam and thus become a non muslim..so,again as i said,wouldn’t the same rule of judging by deeds apply to him too?

    I think you are confusing people who are muslims by name..theer sin;t such a thing..either you follow alah,or you don’t.As simple as that..By having a muslim Osama,he doesn’t become a muslim..and by having a non muslim name Nimmy,i dn’t become a less muslim..

    • Nimmy
    • September 21st, 2008

    Raj,will reply to u later..Im busy..Sorry..

    • nandu
    • September 21st, 2008

    Nimmy,

    I take it that you mean by rejecting Islam, he has become a non-Muslim. Such a person shall be judged by his deeds alone.

    But I have not said he has explicitly “rejected” Allah. He simply does not live by the Qur’an’s rules. For example, he does not pray five times daily, does not observe Ramadan, drinks alcohol and eats pork. But he does not harm others, helps others to the best of his ability, and lives an honourable life.

    Now, side by side with him we have a Hindu who lives exactly the same way.

    One is a Muslim who does not obey Allah’s rules. The other is a non-Muslim who has been born outside the Qur’an’s influence.

    Do you think they will be judged the same?

    • najeeb
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Nandu,

    If I may….

    I am curious about one of the things you mentioned in the question. What did you mean by you are not separate from God? The general conviction is that God omni-potent and omni-present and he is the cause of the causes. Are you claiming the same attributes? If not how can you be noy separate from Him?

    Muslims & Non-Muslims

    Muslims as we know of it with their practices have existed since Prophet Mohamed, approximately for the last 1400 years. Muslims believe that there were more than one hundred thousand prophets before Prophet Mohamed. These prophets and their true followers did not say prayers as muslims do and they will be ‘rewarded’ – as it is said. Though ideologically it is the same, as Prophet Mohamed did not claim to bring anything new, there are differences, at least in practices that are considered as the characteristic of muslims of the present and the earlier prophets and their community. The simple fact that they were prophets proves that the characteristic practices of Muslims do not alone determine how they will be viewed by God – as sinners or not.

    So that is about those before Prophet Mohamed. Diversity is basic feature of the world, created by God. Muslims believe that the earlier scriptures are corrupted. It is only scriptures and not the hearts. And it can easily be seen that they will also be ‘rewarded.’ In my childhood days, I was told a story that which shows how God treats his creation and how muslims are obliged to follow God.
    Prophet Ibrahim had the habit of sharing his breakfast with someone before he consumes. So one day, an old man, a traveler appeared before him, ending his wait for a guest to share his meals. Prophet invited and while they were introducing each other, Prophet Ibrahim found that his guest is a idol worhipper. Now, Prophet Ibrahim is fiercely opposed to idol worship and he had revolted against his own father earlier. Prophet Ibrahim asked the guest to get out without providing him the food and started his wait for another person. According to the tradtion, Angel Gabriel appeared and asked him the reason for not providing the food to the old traveler and Ibrahim answered the reason. Gabriel then wanted to know how old the traveler could be and Ibrahim replied. Now, Gabriel asked, if God can tolerate idolaters on earth for so far and provide them with life, food and other things for their survival, why can’t he tolerate him for some time and provide him a day’s meal. It opened his eyes and went out to call the traveler back and apologized.

    The truth of diversity as created or manifested around us and the truth of its survival with natures abundance bestowed on them, including life or its presence itself shows the nature of God. I do not see any reason why it should be different for muslims or how any interpretation of Quran can contradict with this fact. You may say that history of muslims will prove otherwise. But the very fact that the above story existed all along the history to reach to my ears shows that if Emperors and Kings killed non-muslims in their quest to expand, there were other streams too which kept itself to a different path.

    Then the relevance of the form of prayers and other rituals as offered by muslims. The gist of any prayer, as mentioned in the Hadith of Gabriel, which was meant to teach the religion, is ‘to pray to God as if you see Him, for even if you do not see Him, He sees you’.

    • najeeb
    • September 22nd, 2008
    • Milind Kher
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Najeeb,

    In a manner of speaking, man can be one with God.

    A hadith states, “My slave draws nearer to me, through superogatory prayers, till I become the ears with which he hears, the eyes with which he sees, and the hand with which he grasps”

    It was on this basis that Mansur Hallaj said “Anal Haqq”, meaning I am God (lit I am the Truth).

    These need to be understood metaphorically, not literally.

    • nandu
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Najeeb,

    The idea of a God separate from the universe holds only in the Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All the traditions of the East (India, China, Japan etc.) teach one to see God in everything, including oneself. In Hinduism, this is the Brahman, which encompasses all of the universe. The essential aim of the spiritual journey is to experience God in oneself – “Aham Brahma Asmi” – I am the Brahman. This phrase means the same as “Anal Haqq”.

    If God does not mind which religion you follow, then isn’t religion only a matter of opinion?

    • Nimmy
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Nandu,if i understand it right,you are aksing the same question in a different manner..How is he a ‘muslim’ if he drinks alchohol and eat pork..Leaving aside as to why pork and alchohol is forbidden ,by not obeying Allah,he is out of the fold of islam and so,he’ll be judged by his doings..

    • Nimmy
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Raj,i just re read your comment..

    the Qur’an, on repeated occasions reiterates its claim to be a clear book (5:15) easy to understand (44:58, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40) explained in detail
    (6:114), conveyed clearly, (5:16, 10:15) with no doubt in it (2:1), with clear ordinances, (98:3), of divine nature, (10:37) and full of wisdom (36:2).
    If that is the case then what shall we make of the above
    claims of the clarity of the Qur’an?

    What are you trying to convey..Doesn’t all the verses you gave give out the same meaning,that Quran is a clear,easy to understand,detalied,with no doubts,with clear ordinances ,full of wisdom and divine in nature…What is the confusion here??

    The reformation in Islam will start only when the problems are accepted ..

    There is no doubt that there are hell lot of problems with some muslims..But remember that they stop being muslim,the moment they start disobeying Allah..by disrespecting women,by killing innocent people,by not living in harmony and many more..It would ahve been nice if they followed the real islam..I don’t mean to say that the world will be a heaven if all people are muslims..That will be a boring and sick place..all i intend to say is that it would be better if every person follows their own religion PROPERLY..Else,it would be better for us to make them turn to atheists..Atleast there won’t be any violence in the name of God..Islam today is being higjacked by wicked and perverted minds who ahve gone astray from the path of Allah,and sadly,it is affecting others too

    • Another Kafir
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Nimmy, the question is actually pertinent. Raj seems to be talking about the previous post about the varied interpretations because of varied perceptions and understandings. Because if perception should play a role in interpretation then why the varied interpretations. And if so many interpretations then aren’t the claims of clarity rather untrue.
    The arabic readers of Quran are all divided in their understanding of the holy book (Osama and Ghamidi for e.g.). This is far from clarity and is not what happens with clear ordinances. And both are qualified readers of the Quran who speak Arabic and who have an experience of interpreting it for a long time.
    Law can be considered clear ordinances because the differences that happen interpretation by judges over the years are quite fine in nature and there aren’t glaring contradictions in the interpretations.

    • Milind Kher
    • September 22nd, 2008

    @Nandu,

    It is all subjective. Nobody can OBJECTIVELY state which religion is better, or whether they feel one with God or distinct from him.

    One small correction to your statement. The Abrahamic religions also do not observe this distinction in TOTALITY. Even Islam has a state of fanaa where man feels one with God.

    I guess that is the equivalent of the Hindu feeling of the merger of Atma with Parmatma

    • najeeb
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Hi Milind,

    Yes, I understand that. But it seemed to me that some how he is relating that idea or truth with the revealed word. As if it precludes the possibility of revealed word. That is why it is

    Hi Nandu,

    But I was asking a different question. Are you pr-emptying the possibility of revealed word? If so, I would be interested to know that.

    Anyway, as I understand, Islam – I am not sure about the other two- does not say so. One Hadith says that ‘He who knows himself knows his Lord’ Furthermore, in many exegesis and particularly in sufi literature you will find the idea that even considering yourself as existing, is false as there is only One. Nothing existed nor does anything exist, yet at every moment He manifests himself in another glorious state (55:29).

    Thinking of yourself as existing is considered as the unforgivable sin or the main hurdle on the path. To quote Ibn Arabi, “He is never in anything, nor is anything in him. He is neither inside nor outside of anything. None can know him, only He can know himself. He sees Himself by Himself. Neither a Prophet whom he has sent to humanity, nor a saint, a perfect man nor an angel can see Him, for they are not apart from Him. His Prophets, His Messengers, His Saints are none other than He.”

    As for the question of how religion matters, it is not just opinion it is the understanding too.

    • najeeb
    • September 22nd, 2008

    HI AK,

    It is mentioned that there are seven levels of meaning for every verse in Quran. And everybody grasps in accordance with his or her status or position. And of course with clarity. So there is no contradiction between the two. Only there is a difference in understanding.

    So what determines his/her status? Mostly, his or her Will – though in another sense we can say that there is no ‘his or her will’ as there is only One. Then what in fact determines it? I have yet to find out!! But there is another saying: Every child is born with an innate disposition towards Islam (ie submission to God) but it is their parents who make them Christians, Jews or Zorastrians.

    • najeeb
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Milind – sorry for the abrupt ending, it must be ‘that is why I asked’

    • Nimmy
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Ak,I understand..I can’t and i don;t know what is the right answer..but i guess the last post “one quran infifnite interpretations” answers your doubt as to why Osama and Nimmy interpret the same Quran in two entirely different ways..

    • Nimmy
    • September 22nd, 2008

    @Milind,i agree,its all subjective and personal perspective..I see Allah as my friend and guardian..it may not be the same for someone else..that doesn’t mean one is right and other is wrong..

    • Nimmy
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Najeeb,thanks for your comment.that was very informative..

  3. Great and lovely post. You’re linked. 🙂

    Keep up the Good work, Nimmy.

    • nandu
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Milind and Najeeb,

    There is a subtle distinction in “feeling one with God” and realising “oneself in God”. According to Indian tradition (I will not use the term Hindu, which is a misnomer), everything right from the smallest microbe to the milky way in the sky is God: expressions of God. It is the rapture Sri Ramakrishna describes, of seeing God in “saint and sinner alike”.

    The Sufi tradition is directly derived from the Indian tradition, but was never accepted by mainstream Muslims.

    Nimmy,

    If everyone is going to be judged by their actions, irrespective of what religion they follow, how does religion matter?

    • najeeb
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Hi Nandu,

    If Sufi tradition is derived from Indian tradition, how is that subtle distinction arise? Every sufi traces his sil-sila to Prophet Mohamed thru either Abu Backer or Ali. Historically, many early sufis did not have any contact with Indian tradition. The concept of tracing sufi origin in India is nothing but the spiritual imperialism, as MN Roy calls it in his book, of Hindus only!

    The concept of Wahadatul Wujud (Unity of being) is different from pantheism. While pantheism says that all All is God & God is All, the concept of wahadatul wujud says there is nothing except God. (May be it is the feeling of one’s own existence that makes one to claim of realising God himslef – i am not sure). The rest, whether it is the smallest microbe or the entire universe, it is only maya! So there is no ‘feeling one with God’ because there is no existenace of ‘one’ and there is no ‘realising oneself in God’ because again there is no ‘oneself’

    • najeeb
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Hi Nandu,

    One more point – it is not true that mainstream muslims never accepted sufis. Most of the muslims in India visit sufi durgas – you should be knowing that. It is the same with many other countries.

    • Another Kafir
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Interesting information najeeb, I did not know about the seven levels of understanding. I was however referring to different sort of a difference in understanding. The one where the two are completely contrary to each other. That probably remains a question. I would love to read more about these 7 levels of understanding. Got any links?

    • Another Kafir
    • September 22nd, 2008

    Probably more correct impression would be that sufi’s are more moderate than the mainstream sunni islam. The sufi mosques are visited a lot but they are a dwindling minority in ideology among muslims. Nanduji, these concepts that you mention are too obscure and really require some imagination to understand. Sorry to sound so hackneyed, but any links?

    • Milind Kher
    • September 22nd, 2008

    @Najeeb,

    I think the parallel you have drawn between the Hindu and Muslim way of thinking is great. Yes, the sufi tradition does believe in Wahdat ul Wujud, the unity of creation.

    The 7 levels of understanding of the Quran is something I am not aware of. Yes, I know about the 7 types of recitation (haft qir’aat).

    However, I have read about 4 levels of understanding

    Ibarah or clear meaning for aam or general people.

    Isharah or meaning for khass or elite people

    Lataeef or subtleties for auliya or friends of God

    Haqqaiq or truths for anbiya or prophets

    Do post more information about all this. It is very interesting.

    • Raj
    • September 23rd, 2008

    DEAR Najeeb ,
    Link given by you doesnt provide any answer to my queries .

    My question is that by being clear and without poetry Quran negates the use of personal perception to interpret these verses …

  4. @Raj:

    I’m not sure if I’m answering the right question.. but the very simple truth about the Qur’an is that it’s been revealed to ALL OF HUMANITY, and for ALL AGES.

    By this very nature of the book, it needs to be open for interpretation. An interpretation made in Arabia a millenia and half ago, cannot hold true for a country 500 years down the line.

    This is where the conflict occurs. The Sufis, etc have made their own interpretations – and wonderful ones too – and assimiliated it into the local culture.

    The Wahabbis/Salafists – and Islamophobes – on the other hand stick to a very literal and rigid interpretation of the text and terms like ‘jehad’ are interpreted in the extreme radical sense.

    The onus is upon us – YOU AND ME – to interpret it in the most sensible manner – and use your minds, like the prophet urged.

    • nandu
    • September 23rd, 2008

    Najeeb,

    The Indian tradition is historically much, much older than the Islamic tradition. Islam is the youngest religion in the world. When you find the same philosophy in two traditions, it is only logical to assume it originated in the more ancient one. Of course, they could have developed parallely, but in this case I doubt it.

    In Anand’s book, which is a very well researched one, he gives an analysis of the sufi tradition and how it was related to India. He also gives historical examples of how sufis were persecuted by Muslim rulers. The relation of sufism to Indian tradition can also be found in Octavio Paz’s book about India (I forget the name).

    Mainstream Islam has always promoted the idea of a separate God. Sufism is not the authoritative voice of Islam. And Islam does not believe in pluralism-every Muslim scholar claims that there is one “authentic” interpretation of Islam.

    • Nimmy
    • September 23rd, 2008

    @Raj,I thought of having a seperate post on this..but then something else popped up.Sorry for being late to reply..

    Let us look at he verses you quoted in complete..

    And indeed, We have eased the Qur’an in your tongue that they might be reminded.

    And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?

    [Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?” And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.

    O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

    And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, “Bring us a Qur’an other than this or change it.” Say, [O Muhammad], “It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day.”

    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah

    And it was not [possible] for this Qur’an to be produced by other than Allah, but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture, about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.

    Now, look at the verse in which Allah says the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is to clarify the message for us:

    “We did not send any messenger except (to preach) in the tongue of his people, in order to clarify things for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.” – 14:4

    “[We sent them (Messengers)] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.” – 16:44

    “And We have not revealed to you the Book, [O Muhammad], except for you to make clear to them that wherein they have differed and as guidance and mercy for a people who believe.” – 16:64

    “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), but if you turn away, then the duty of Our Messenger is only to convey (the Message) clearly.” – 64:12

    The Quran has been made to be easy for us to memorize, clear evidences, and fully detailed. But, Allah states that Muhammad (pbuh) is to clarify this message to us. People interpret things to fit their agenda, based on their desires.You’ll see interpretations based on Hadith, based on numbers, based on personal desires.. The true interpretation is that of Muhammad (pbuh). I hope that answers your qstn..

    Do ask again if i am not clear or if i am wrong..I am also just learning..Good day

    • najeeb
    • September 23rd, 2008

    Hi Raj,

    That site is meant for your first post reg the jews and others.

    Hi AK,

    I googled but unfortunately could not find any links

    Hi Milind,

    There is a Hadith that says there are 7 levels of meaning.

    Hi Nandu,

    Anand is not final word on anything. MN Roy has a totally different opinion about it (not about Sufis but about the propogation of Islam) Acceptance of sufis by masses as can be seen in countries where you can find muslims. (I agree that common masses may not be familiar with inricate ideas.) shows the hollowness of Anand’s research.

    • Raj
    • September 23rd, 2008

    Dear Yaamen

    For all time — means that it is relevant for everyone at every time .. that means it is universal .. and universal means there is no interpretation .. it means it is same with same meaning whenever you read it .. its meaning wont change ..
    Like ethics for eg – we shall not lie .. this remains universal beyond time .. there is not diff interpretation ..

    • Raj
    • September 23rd, 2008

    Dear Nimmy
    so you are saying .. the correct meaning can be understood by only Prophet and no one else as we interprets differently.. Since he is no more, Quran is irrelevant as no one can understand it correctly .?
    so you are contradicting the quran it self when it says that

    clear book (5:15) easy to understand (44:58, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40) explained in detail
    (6:114), conveyed clearly, (5:16, 10:15) with no doubt in it (2:1), with clear ordinances, (98:3), of divine nature, (10:37) and full of wisdom (36:2).

    • Raj
    • September 23rd, 2008

    So in a way you are saying that we humans cant understand the real meaning of Quran and we can only mesmerize it .. and we need only Prophet to explain its true nature .. that what makes a sufi or a libral muslim diffrent from a radical .. you mean to say both are wrong ?

    what a dilemma ??

    • nandu
    • September 23rd, 2008

    Najeeb,

    “Anand is not the final word on anything.”

    Neither is M.N.Roy.

    It seems to me that you have not read Anand’s book, only criticisms of it. First of all, the book traces the roots of intolerance in all religions. Secondly, Anand has quoted Islamic historians on many of the persecutions of Sufis and “infidels” – Aurangazeb’s atrocities against Hindu temples are quite gleefully narrated by court historians, as successful wars waged against infidels. The original sources have been referred to for all those willing to check it out. Anand also takes time out the praise Akbar and Dara Shikoh – hardly the actions of an Islamophobe.

    I am sorry, but I do not subscribe to the global conspiracy theory against Muslims. My study of history has shown me that Islam has had a long and bloody history of religious expansionism-often narrated by the court historians of the marauding invaders themselves. But that does not mean that I believe all Muslims are violent, and that to be a Muslim you have to be intolerant.

    Similarly, I do not believe that the Qur’an is the revealed word of God, any more than the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita. But I do not have a problem with anybody believing that. But I will call a spade a spade.

    Can you tell me what part of the Qur’an is the inspiration for Sufism?

    • Nimmy
    • September 23rd, 2008

    Raj,yeah true..what a dilemma..But personally i don’t But is it possible to all to interpret the way they like?Wouldn’t it then lead to violent interpretations??**scratches head**..pls give me some time..Let me look more into it..Thanks for your input..

    • najeeb
    • September 24th, 2008

    Hi Nandu,

    Of course MN Roy is not the final word – I thought you would have presumed that I will not be in agreement with his many of the conclusions in the book.

    Aurangazeb had destroyed temples. You can google and find how many Hindu Kings also did that.

    Is it just Islam that has a bloody history behind it? Since you are a malayalee, let us take Kerala. Does it have a peaceful history? No, it is not. Just take the case of Mamankam – how many were killed at every event of Mamankam. Were all the erstwhile countries – or princely states as they are called – that became Kerala existed peacefully? No there were wars and wars and wars

    I do not want to get in to an argument on who is better religion. But for a moment let us do it. Consider the mythology or history. How Lank was destroyed for rescuing Sita. Lankadahanam was un-necessary.

    What about Kurukshetra? It was an illegal war as Pandawas – even this name is misleading – had no right on the land as they were not fathered by Pandava. You must know the not-so-dharmic actions employed by Pandavas at the inspiration of Krishna to win the war. In Bhgawath Geeta, it is claimed that whenever there is decadence of dharma, Lord is born again. As we can see from Mahabhrata, there was no evidence of decadence of dharma as we never heard Krishna or anybody complaining that the situation in the country was bad, and thus a ‘regime change is necessary. If Kauravas were ready to give away even five villages, the war would have avoided. So the destruction was for power only.

    We know the myth about Onam. If Lord takes birth every age for the destruction of the wicked and protection of the good, why Vamana suppressed Mahabali to Patala? We know how Mahabali ruled his Kingdom. The treachery of this avatar is also typical, he was a dwarf and only after the extracting the promise from Mahabali he grew in size. One may tempted to ask, what dharma did Vamana establish?

    It is also mentioned elsewhere that only Quran is used to justify violence. But we know the cast system and the unjust idea – graded inequality as Ambedkar described – which led to untold suffering of millions thru ages originated from Gita. If caste system was mis-used by the powerful for their advantage and humuliated the mjority for thousands of years, why the Lord, as promised, did not take another Avatara to destroy the wicked, while there was an Avatar of Vamana to punish Mahabali?! Surely, those who mis-used the caste system were wicked, or are they not?

    These are all examples of violent history of Sanadhana Dharma and betrayal behind it, which we ignore blissfully.

    The mentality of hypocrisy of accusing islam alone as having a blood stained history is similar to the depicting of Kauravas as bad boys and Pandawas as the good ones.

    What makes Anand an Islamophobe is ignoring of the facts mentioned in Nimmy’s post on war ethics or MN Roy’s quote of Abu Backer. Anyway, Anand is only a retired civil engineer and a novelist, he hardly can claim to be a historian while MN Roy’s stature is entirely different.

    As to the question of origin of sufism in Quran, it is not a some part of quran, it is the entire quran.

    • Raj
    • September 24th, 2008

    Dear Najeeb
    Sorry for butting in but i did google and this is what I found

    http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=destruction+of+hindu+temples&spell=1

    secondly , if there is anything in Gita or any other Hindu scriptures which is unethical from todays standard , it has been banned and has been declared unlawful .. casteism is as bad as treatment of non muslims in any islamic societies .. caste system is banned in India and Punished by the law ..while descremination against non muslims inIslamic societes are justified in the name of Faith .

    Thirdly you are using Hindu Mythology to compare with Quran ..
    Mythology is Myth .. created for Masses .. stories ..

    This is what you shall compare

    Hindu thought process and Philosophy which is a guiding power for any faith process or Mythology I am giving you the link of few of them .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

    • Milind Kher
    • September 24th, 2008

    Najeeb,

    I agree with you totally. Irfan (gnosis) derives its philosophy totally from the Qur’an.

    And you are absolutely right about the Mahabharat. The Pandavas did not have a legitimate claim in the first place.

    And Krishna did kill a lot of people thru deceipt. He masterminded the killing of Jayadratha, Bhishma and Karan.

    Nevertheless, people will have arguments to justify all the above!!

    • Milind Kher
    • September 24th, 2008

    Sorry for the wrong spelling of deceit. Had a receipt on mind and got it muddled – LOL!!

    • najeeb
    • September 25th, 2008

    Hi Raj,

    I propose to you to read more on the history of temple destruction. I do not refuse to accept that muslims have destroyed temples. But if that was a commonplace act, then common logic says that no temples would have been left in India after almost 800 years of rule. It is also worthwhile to acknowledge that Bamyan Budhas existed for almost 1000 years of muslim rule and none of those rulers destroyed it.

    Thanks for the links! While there is no question about highest form of thought that originated in India, an equally deceit and trecherous system existed which refused to treat human beings as human beings and accepted many undharmic actions. (Incidentally, that does not mean that if you find similar thoughts at some other place at a later date, it is logical to conclude that they copied it from India. To me, it shows the nature of the Truth. To claim otherwise is an example of spiritual imperialism ) And it can’t be otherwise, because the difference or discrimination started from the very origin of humans, some are from head, some are from feet etc.

    So you are saying it is a myth only- you mean Krishna and the story of Kurukshetra, and Rama, his bith and Ravana. Be careful, I do not know who will come after you.

    As for banning the caste, it is true but the mentality still persists. Just few weeks ago, I heard a colleague of me saying, ‘he is a scheduled cast’. Recently, there was news from Tamil Nadu, low cast people demolished wall that separated them from the high cast people in a village. Then the entire high cast community moved to another place!

    As for treating non-muslims not equally, pls try to understand that in Islam there are many muslims who say that practice is wrong. So it will change. Caste system was banned only after 4000 years or more. But Islam, as is practiced now has existed for the last 1400 years only and there are many historical examples that show that on many occasions, they were treated equally. Though not an excuse, and just for fun, arithmatically, it has another 3600 years to catch up!!

    Milind,

    Thanks!

    • Raj
    • September 25th, 2008

    Dear Najeeb/ Milind

    Yes i did read history about India .
    distruction of a temple for constructing a road is different from distruction of temple for the purpose of religious hatred .
    Bamiayan Buddha existed and so did lot of other temples but these minorities have to Pay Jajiya for it .
    there has been few saner and understanding Muslim rulers like Akbar but they were excpetion .

    my point of providing these link was to put my point that Spritiualism has to be the guiding force for faith . because spiritualism is based on questioning and not believing . while faith is about beliving without question . so by being contradictory to faith it keep the faith in balance and in sync with ethics and humanity .
    any religious system which is based on only faith will create problem for humans .

    Yes these are Myths — thats why they are called mythology created for Bhakti Marg (Path of devotion). which s one of the four paths along with Path of Knoweldge and Path of ethics (for athiests).
    dont worry my belif system has nothign do with people who belive these myths I respect them and participate in these rituals .
    As advaita Philosophy says that We Human create god out of pur perception of Truth (Brahman). so we can create as many gods as want given the condition that these gods follows the law of ethics and humanity .. devotion is in humans heart .. so it doesnt mater that do you pray .. a tree , a monkey or a human .. because devotion leads to getting rid of the illusion of this world and then finally we dont need any god .

    As per caste system , first, it is a social problem and not a religious prolem and thats why our social concious decided to inact laws to ban it without any opposition of it .
    As you mentioned about the person who still keeps these biased perception is one of many people who have knoweldge but no wisdom .
    there are many like him across India who needs light and remember our social system supports the wisodm with its power and laws .
    judge a society by its laws and rules and not by its criminals .
    are u trying to say “see you are bad so I am Bad “?

    No .. Time is not an excuse .. its refusing to change with wisdom of modern world which i am questioning .. not what the past was .
    human history is laced is brutality .. but lets change it because we have option .. option of humanity

    • najeeb
    • September 25th, 2008

    Hi Raj,

    It I agree that Hidu kings did not destroy as many as Muslims rulers. But the fact, as mentioned in the earlier post, is that if it was only Akbar who did not, then it is only common sense to conclude that you would not find as many temples in India now as you see.

    I agree that time is not an excuse. I clearly said that too. Further more now who is destroying mosques, churches and homes of others in India now? The carnage in Orissa is still continuing. Even yesterday, christian houses were attached and burned by parivar.

    No, it is not a social issue. It has origin in the concepts like who originated from what part. Gita says ‘Chaturvarnyam mayasrishtam.’ Claims like deterioration of a ‘noble’ idea is like missing the forest for trees or plain deceit. It is easy to understand that what has happened is the natural consequence.

    ” its refusing to change with wisdom of modern world which i am questioning ”

    Exactly. Those who subscribe to descrimination of non-muslims are like those, who you mentioned while addressing the still persisting mentality of caste, they have only knowledge but no wisdom.

    • najeeb
    • September 25th, 2008

    Sorry for lot of typo and other mistakes. May be I have read before I click submit button

    • Milind Kher
    • September 25th, 2008

    Yes, there were Muslim kings that did destroy Hindu temples. However, we need to understand that the motive was not purely religious.

    In some cases, there was plunder.

    And very often, in those days, people asserted supremacy through destroying what in the mind of the other had the greatest sanctity.

    • Raj
    • September 25th, 2008

    Dear Najeeb

    First, As I mentioned and gave you the link the Hinduism is not about a faith system dominating “reason” but its a reason dominating Faith .. it will be a long discussion that Caste has a social or religious origin . because Gita is not book of rules but a part of a mythological story .. but lets not divert from topic and lets accept that Caste is based on religious belief ..
    But it has been made illegal by Law.. can we do the same with violent and controversial verses of religious book ? can you think of it .. is it possible ?
    No it is not .. so caste can’t be an excuse for few racial teaching of certain faith system . discrimination on the basis of caste are in no way like the discrimination based on religion in Islamic societies because Law and social power is against them in first case while in other case Law and Social power supports discrimination .

    • najeeb
    • September 25th, 2008

    Hi Raj,

    Here are some excerpts from Chandogya Upanishad: (http://www.geocities.com/advaitavedant/chandogya.htm)

    “ VII-xvii-1: ‘When one understands, then alone does one declare the truth. Without understanding, one does not declare the truth. Only he who understands declares the truth. But one must desire to understand understanding.’ ‘Revered sir, I desire to understand understanding’.

    VII-xviii-1: ‘When one reflects, then alone does one understand. Without reflecting one does not understand. Only he who reflects understands. But one must desire to understand reflection.’ ‘Revered sir, I desire to understand reflection’.

    VII-xix-1: ‘When one has faith, then alone does one reflect. Without faith, one does not reflect. Only he who has faith reflects. But one must desire to understand faith’. ‘Revered sir, I desire to understand faith’.

    VII-xx-1: ‘When one has steadfastness, then alone does one have faith. Without steadfastness, one does not have faith. Only he who has steadfastness has faith. But one must desire to understand steadfastness.’ ‘Revered sir, I desire to understand steadfastness.’

    VII-xxi-1: ‘When one acts, then alone does one become steadfast. Without acting, one does not become steadfast. Only on acting does one become steadfast. But one must desire to understand activity’. ‘Revered sir, I desire to understand activity’.” Unquote

    In short:

    To declare truth, one needs to understand. To understand, one needs to reflect. To reflect, one needs faith.

    Is faith dominating reason or reason dominating faith here? The answer is clear, it adds ”Without faith, one does not reflect”

    The conversation continues to define what faith is. It is steadfastness. Steadfastness on what? As I understand it is faith and not Reason.

    What is steadfastness? It develops when one acts. So what is an act? An act becomes an act only when one attains happiness. Then alone does one act. However, it does not say what one should act upon. As I understand this act has to be complementary to the faith. It does not say faith must be based on reason.

    Let us continue with the quotes:

    “ VII-xxv-1: ‘That infinite alone is below. That is above. That is behind. That is in front. That is to the south. That is to the north. That alone is all this. So next is the teaching in regard to the self-sense. I alone am below. I am above. I am behind. I am in front. I am to the south. I am to the north. I alone am all this.

    VII-xxv-2: ‘So now is the teaching through Atman. Atman alone is below. Atman is above. Atman is behind. Atman is in front. Atman is to the south. Atman is to the north. Atman alone is all this. Verily, he it is who sees thus, and understands thus, has pleasure in Atman, delight in Atman, union in Atman, joy in Atman. He becomes Self-sovereign; he becomes free to act as he wishes in all the worlds. But those who know otherwise than this are ruled by others and live in perishable worlds; they are not free to act as they wish in all the worlds.

    VII-xxvi-1: Verily, for him alone, who sees thus, reflects thus and understands thus, Prana springs from Atman, aspiration from Atman, memory from Atman, Akasa from Atman, fire from Atman, water from Atman, appearance and disappearances from Atman, food from Atman, strength from Atman, understanding from Atman, contemplation from Atman, intelligence from Atman, will from Atman, mind from Atman, speech from Atman, name from Atman, hymns from Atman, rites from Atman, all this (springs) from Atman alone.” Unquote

    Does this conversation establish the existence of Atman logically and with reason? I do not find so. If it is otherwise, can you tell me how? And can you justify your statement that in Hinduism reason is above faith?

    Btw, Imam Gazali said “no one becomes a believer, unless he doubt”

    You wrote:
    “can we do the same with violent and controversial verses of religious book ? can you think of it .. is it possible ?
    No it is not .. so caste can’t be an excuse for few racial teaching of certain faith system”

    It is only your opinion that those verses are violent and need to be deleted. Most of the muslims understand it properly and make cordial relationship with non-muslims. For example, muslims do not go around and simply kill unbelievers where they can find them! If I am not mistaken, even Osama is not doing that!! Is it because of Islam or despite Islam? Ask around, and you will find the answer.

    You can find many ancient communities in many muslim countries. Patriarch of Antioch church lives and conducts his duties in Damascus, Syria. We, Indians boast that we have allowed every faith in to our land, but the fact is that they were called and treated as ‘mlechas’. Almost all muslim rulers in India employed non-muslims in the highest ranks but if I am not mistaken and I am ready to be corrected, most Hindu rulers avoided muslim employees under them. One case that I remember now is that of Kunjali Marakkar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunjali_Marakkar) under Zamorin of Calicut. Unfortunately, Zamorin betrayed him.

    Pls do not read more than what is written. I have never said caste is an excuse for discrimination. What I wrote clearly is that there are many muslims who say that discrimination is wrong and that is based on their understanding of Islamic teaching. At this blog none of the muslim participants claims the opposite. (Oddly, what is happening here is that muslims claim that, that is not the way we understand and practice those verses, but you guys disagree and insist that how muslims understand those verses are as what we are saying and not as what muslims themselves are saying!!) ‘Even in Pakistan’ none of the fundamentalist parties get more than a single digit percentage of votes. Thus I do not know what you mean by social power.

    There is one thing for sure; the discrimination based on caste was more severe. And there are many historical examples were muslims and non-muslims lived harmoniously, whereas such examples of high caste and low caste communities mixing together is near to zero.

    • Raj
    • September 26th, 2008

    Dear Najeeb,

    The Reason that you quoted Upnishads tells clearly that Reason is important then faith .. because Upnishads are “reasons” or comments by many sages on faith .
    and they are not bounding rules .. they are thoughts .. even if you dont agree to them you wont be an apostate.

    WE are diverting from the main topic on Caste .. but as I will clearify .. anything written in religious books which is against ethics and our understanding of humanity have to be rectified . and thats why we have enacted the laws to changes things ..these laws overrule any and every book of faith .

    is this same with “few” other religious books ?? no
    it is not about most who understand .. its about everyone who dont .. so whats wrong in enacting law to ban those verses if they dont mean what they say ..

    As nimmy said only Prophet knows their real meaning but since he is no more .. you mean to say no one understand its real meaning .. nor you and those who dont kill and neither those who kill ..
    As per the cleche criticism of severity of caste system .. please remember .. sage Valmiki was a SC , Shivaji was a Barber , CHandragupta Maurya was a SC .. there are many examples . this doesnt means I am supportng castesim .. it is bad and thank god we have banned that ..

    • Milind Kher
    • September 26th, 2008

    It isn’t that only the Holy Prophet (SAWA) knew the inner meaning of things in the Qur’an.

    The Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) also knew them.

    In fact, the Holy Prophet (SAWA) said, “Ana Madinat ul ilm wa Aliyun Babuha”

    I AM THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE AND ALI IS ITS GATE.

    • Raj
    • September 26th, 2008

    so you mean Just two individuals knew the real meaning .. we all humans are unable to understand it ?

    • Milind Kher
    • September 26th, 2008

    @Raj,

    There are several levels of understanding of the Quran. If you read Najeeb’s post, he talked of seven levels of understanding.

    We are talking here only about the ULTIMATE level of understanding. At the top, people are always very few.

    • Raj
    • September 26th, 2008

    7 Levels of Understanding .. could you please explain ?

    • Milind Kher
    • September 26th, 2008

    Najeeb will be able to tell you about the 7 levels of understanding.

    I am aware of 4 levels of understanding in terms of Quranic content

    ibarah or plaining meaning for the aam or masses.

    isharah or allegorical meaning for the khas or elite

    lataeef or subtleties for the auliya or saints

    Haqaiq or Divine Truths for prophets

    • najeeb
    • September 26th, 2008

    Hi Raj,

    “The Reason that you quoted Upnishads tells clearly that Reason is important then faith ”

    Let me try to understand this conundrum. You are saying that the act of me quoting the Upanishad , which tells us that reflection – a process in which the faculty of reason is used – is possible only if there is faith, clearly shows that Reason takes precedence over faith! Confusing, isn’t it? Can you pls clarify it further, on how the mere quoting of the upanishad, which holds just the opposite view of what the quoting of it purportedly proves, automatically prove reason is important than faith?

    I would clarify my position on why I quoted the Upanishad. You said that in Hinduism, presumably unlike other religions, Reason is more important than faith. Upanishads are considered as the important building blocks of Hinduism and Chandogya Upanishad is one among the most important of them. So I wanted to show that even one of most important texts of Hinduism holds a view which is against what you claimed Hinduism to be. That is all.

    I hoped that you will continue on this topic, as it is you who made that point first and not me. But you dodged away. Why? I have heard such claims many times before but I could not see anybody clearly showing how it is so.

    “…even if you dont agree to them you wont be an apostate.”

    Correct but irrelevant statement, espoecially since you do not want to continue on the subject. But since you mentioned, I would like to add this: if you perform something which is beyond the scope of your caste, you would be punished – I mean at the time it was wrote. Do you remember the name of the saint who was killed by Rama, because the members of the caste to which the saint belonged were not supposed to do tapasya?

    “it is not about most who understand .. its about everyone who dont ..

    Who are those who do not understand? As I said, as long as I know, even Osama does not go around killing ‘kafirs’ because quran tells him to kill wherever he can find them. He sites other reasons – Lest mis-understood, I have nothing to do with Osama, absolutely nothing and I do not sympathize with those reasons or the methods he employs . (On hindsight, is it not a pity that I need to make such a statement?)

    “…so whats wrong in enacting law to ban those verses if they dont mean what they say”

    Again, wrong. It does mean what it says, but it does not mean what you claim it says. Even if there are muslims who take it in the wrong way and thus trying to put a ban is like setting fire to a house to get rid of some rats.

    What is needed is you guys should stop telling or propogating that those who understand it correctly are wrong and if you can find time and are willing, instead of spending time to create fear in masses by spreading half truths and false information, help us to propogate what it actually means.

    Btw, the meaning of the statement “I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate’ is that thru Ali, one is able to enter the city. It does not say no one else can enter the city. And this is the reason, as I understand, why many Sufis trace their silsila to Prophet thru Ali.

    • najeeb
    • September 26th, 2008

    Hi Raj, Milind,

    I do not know much on that except an Hadith which says that quran has an inner meaning and that inner meaning conceals a yet deeper inner meaning up to seven levels of meaning.

    • Raj
    • September 27th, 2008

    Yes .. Upnishads are among many views about Self and truth ..
    so Many views here means there is continuity .. that means I am also free to make my own view .. and i can change that view with new knowldge and new discoveries .

    The problem here is perception .. for you a book or a code of conduct is important to be Part of a religious group .. this is the view of Abrahamic religions .. for you its quran .. for a christian its Bible (New testament) and for a Jew its Old testament ..
    for A hindu I am free to make my own view and my god .. thats why there are many gods and many views in Hinduism ..
    this freedom from slavery of an ideology makes “reason” important then faith ..

    and thats why you quoted Ramayan to prove that Hinduism or Hindues are Like that .. but then as i said Ramayan is a mythology .. a story to create a God .. to find devotion in ones heart .. tomorrow if i disagree with Ramayan I will still be Hindu ..
    Athiesm is also part of Hinduism .. Samkhya is a athiestic school of hinduism ..

    about the last part of your reply .. I am quoting from Quran

    Quotes from Quran

    “Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah’s wrath.” (2:61)

    Jews are like apes:
    “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.” (2:64)

    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)

    But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay the jizya, then open the way for them (9:5)

    now if you can tell me .. from your view .. how this view can be Justified ?

    • Milind Kher
    • September 27th, 2008

    Raj,

    Ref 2:61, humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on those who demanded herbs, lentils, cucumbers and onions from Moses, all these being inferior to manna and quails which the Lord provided in very difficult times.

    Ref 2:62, where many communities, including Jews are promised that they shall not grieve.

    Ref 2:65 (which you have put as 2:64), the transformation into apes was only that of the sabbath breakers. So, everything needs to be understood in its right perspective.

    • Nimmy
    • September 27th, 2008

    002.061
    YUSUFALI: And remember ye said: “O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth, -its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions.” He said: “Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!” They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.

    002.062
    YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    002.063
    YUSUFALI: And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): “Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah.”

    002.064
    YUSUFALI: But ye turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah to you, ye had surely been among the lost.

    002.065
    YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.”

    .

    002.066
    YUSUFALI: So We made it an example to their own time and to their posterity, and a lesson to those who fear Allah.

    002.067
    YUSUFALI: And remember Moses said to his people: “Allah commands that ye sacrifice a heifer.” They said: “Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?” He said: “Allah save me from being an ignorant (fool)!”

    002.068
    YUSUFALI: They said: “Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what (heifer) it is!” He said; “He says: The heifer should be neither too old nor too young, but of middling age. Now do what ye are commanded!”

    Does reading the veres before and after make more sense than picking them from nowhere and interpreting it??????

    • Milind Kher
    • September 27th, 2008

    @Nimmy,

    Thanks so much for supplementing my arguments. Actually, I am glad that we are able to provide perspective to a lot of people about Islam.

    One thing heartening is that although people may be mistaken in their interpretation of Islam, they are not ignorant of it.

    • Nimmy
    • September 27th, 2008

    2:61 You said, “O Moses, we will not be patient to one type of food, so call for us your Lord that He may bring forth what the earth grows of its beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions.” He said, “Would you trade what is lowly with what is good?” Descend to Egypt, you will have in it what you have asked for. They were thus stricken with humiliation and disgrace, and they remained under God’s wrath for they were not appreciating God’s signs, and killing the prophets with no justification. This is for what they have disobeyed and transgressed.

    Pls read this..Quoting my friend..

    After attaining their freedom in Sinai, the Children of Israel started missing the variety of food they were fed by their Egyptian masters. This verse emphasizes the importance of liberty and our lack of appreciation of it when we have it. The book of Exodus in the Old Testament is dedicated to the historic emigration of the Children of Israel that led them to freedom. Compare this verse to the Old Testament, Numbers 11:4-5. For the quail, see Numbers 11:31-33. A verse in the New Testament is profound in relating freedom to intellect and reality: “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32). Also, See Isaiah 61:1; Isaiah 42:6-7.

    Covetous for the material products of the earth, dissatisfied with the heavenly (spiritual) aspects of life, a better nourishment, the Bani Israil fell into abasement and humiliation, because they exchanged that which was better for that which was worse.

    Sabeans belonged to Chaldean religion. Their religion was much modified at various times and places by Jewish, Gnostic and Zoroastrian influences, and so there are conflicting accounts of them in various Muslim authors. Star-worship was the distinctive feature of their religion, otherwise they were monotheists.

    Before saying that whoever believes in Allah and the last day, and does good, not becoming a Muslim even after Islam has been chosen as the religion of Allah, is entitled to be blessed by Allah, the following verse should be taken into consideration:

    And whoso seeks as religion other than Islam it will not be accepted from him, and he will be among the losers in the hereafter.

    And to remove misunderstanding, it should be noted that this verse refers to those Sabeans, Jews and Christians who, as sincere faithful, followed the original teachings of their respective prophets, without ever corrupting the true message, and believing in the prophecy of the advent of Muhammad made known by Musa, Isa and other prophets (see Baqarah: 40), and also those of them who lived in the days of the Holy Prophet but died before the news of his proclamation of the promised prophethood could reach them, because surely they would have come into the fold of Islam if they had known about it. Belief in the unity of Allah and the day of judgement and doing good is the spirit of Islam. This was the religion all the messengers of Allah preached to their people.

    • Milind Kher
    • September 28th, 2008

    I would like to add that there are enough and more verses where God asks Muslims to do good deeds, practice kindness etc.

    Why is it that people always pick controversial verses? Is it because they genuinely do not understand, or because they want to test our knowledge? In either case, we are willing to answer, because we believe in our faith.

    • najeeb
    • September 28th, 2008

    Hi Raj,

    “this freedom from slavery of an ideology makes “reason” important then faith”

    You are shifting your arguement from one to another to prove that in Hinduism reason is more important. Never mind- but I fail to understand your latest reason on why reason has more importance.

    The premises you start is that you and hindus are not bound to ideology. Whether this conclusion is correct and if that status of freedom is better than those who are bound by ideology is a point to be debated separately – if I adopt your approach to Islam, which essentially is that what muslims are saying about their religion and how they practice is wrong and what i am saying is correct, I can show that your above conclusion is historically wrong. Yet, I leave it there and accept your interpretation.

    As long as I can decipher, not bound by ideology does not automatically show that reason is better. It can be that such attitude can lead to foolishness too. Correct?

    For the ‘violent’ verses you quoted, Nimmy and Milind have replied beautifuly. What now remains to be seen is that if you are ready to accept what muslims say about their religion, rather than trying to impose your interpretation on them.

    • Raj
    • September 28th, 2008

    Well Najeeb/Nimmy .Milind

    Ideologies always make slave .. whether it is Nazism ,Communism or any ideology based on faith .. people have dont so many brutal acts because of these ideologies .. they loss the ability fo think beyond these ideologies

    You rerfuse to answer my question .. about explaination on these violent verses .. instead you started telling me lot of other verses ..
    thats avoiding the answer .. either you dont have or you dont want to ..

    Why I am asking about these verses and not “good”ones.. ?well because thousands have died because of these violent verses and may be one day it can kill on the road .. and its all because of these verses .. someone will find his motivation and justification from these ..

    • Nimmy
    • September 28th, 2008

    Raj

    You rerfuse to answer my question .. about explaination on these violent verses .. instead you started telling me lot of other verses ..
    thats avoiding the answer .. either you dont have or you dont want to

    Which verse are you reffering to..I answered to verses quoted by you only??am i missing something?

    • Milind Kher
    • September 28th, 2008

    @Raj,

    Referring to the “violent” verse 9:5, it is only about those Meccan idolaters who were notorious for breaking treaties.

    And read the verse which immediately follows (9:6)

    And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

    The circumstances that necessitated verse 9:29 are as below:

    “It was a necessary step that had to be taken in view of the treacherous attitude of the Jews and the pagans who had been harassing and creating chaos all the time during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet. When defeated they readily made pacts to avoid the consequences of the defeat, but always jumped at every opportunity to kill the Holy Prophet and the believers and destroy the progress of Islam by breaking promises and covenants and hatching secret schemes.”

    Trust this has provided you the necessary explanation

    • Raj
    • September 28th, 2008

    Dear Milind ..
    First .. it says Infidals .. it doesnt say Meccan idolaters .
    Second -Prophet or the messenger of god is suppose to be a human with merciful heart ..
    third -they have to convert or die
    fourth – verse 9.29 .. is more about glorifying Violence by being anti Jews .. it proclaims every jew or Idol worshiper to be trecherous

    • Milind Kher
    • September 28th, 2008

    @Raj,

    You have to read authentic commentaries which will give you the actual context. The Quran is not something which we can interpret on the basis of our own opinions.

    When the Prophet invaded Mecca, he proclaimed a general amnesty, all previous enmities notwithstanding.

    • Raj
    • September 28th, 2008

    Dear Milind
    Quran itself says that it is clear and Easy to read .. you dont need commentries to understand .

    Qur’an, on repeated occasions reiterates its claim to be a clear book (5:15) easy to understand (44:58, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40) explained in detail
    (6:114), conveyed clearly, (5:16, 10:15) with no doubt in it (2:1), with clear ordinances, (98:3), of divine nature, (10:37) and full of wisdom (36:2).

    • nandu
    • September 29th, 2008

    Hello all,

    I see these discussions doing the usual “round and round” and not reaching any place, which is why I have been silent. I have seen this happen in many places where religious matters are discussed-religion is too close to the heart of many people to be discussed rationally. Somebody from another religious background can easily spot the holes in the logic, but can never sway the adherent.

    I personally have a taken a vow not to enter into such pointless debates, which is why I am refraining from posting any longer.

    Let me say once again that I do not consider any “sacred” text the word of God – I find them violent, silly and full of contradictions in many places. And none of the arguments presented here has given me the slightest reason to change my opinion. My interest religion is more of a psychological and spiritual one. And I generally do not read interpretations by “learned” people – I consider myself fully capable of reading and understanding something for myself.

    • Milind Kher
    • September 30th, 2008

    @Nandu,

    It is not a question of emotion. It is one of logic. Just as a person cannot medicate oneself, medicine being a matter where specialized knowledge is required, so is it with exegesis of profound texts such as the Quran

    • nandu
    • September 30th, 2008

    Milind,

    That the Qur’an is a “profound” text is only your belief, one which I do not share. I am not prepared to take a believer’s word that it has to be explained to me. Then I am receiving that person’s interpretation, and not mine.

    I will go on reading religious texts and judging for myself, without the preconditions that they have to be treated as “sacred” or “profound”.

    That is why, I find these discussions monotonous.

    • Raj
    • September 30th, 2008

    Medicine and belief are two diffrent things .. while medicine is science based on universal phenomenon and it belief has nothing to do with it .. while faith is based on you religious ideologies ..

    • Nimmy
    • September 30th, 2008

    Nandu,the discussion goes round and round,bcoz everytime something is clarified,i see the same argument “Qur’an, on repeated occasions reiterates its claim to be a clear book (5:15) easy to understand (44:58, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40) explained in detail
    (6:114), conveyed clearly, (5:16, 10:15) with no doubt in it (2:1), with clear ordinances, (98:3), of divine nature, (10:37) and full of wisdom (36:2).”

    Though discussed in detail in another post,thesame stuff keeps repeating..So,im not to be blamed for keeping discussion cyclic..

    People are free to believe the way they want to..I am not hell bent over convincing everybody in this world to believe in Quran and that it is Allah’s word,bcoz in that case,you’ld be called a muslim and the world will be hell boring if all people on this earth were muslims 🙂 So,remian the way you are..

    personally have a taken a vow not to enter into such pointless debates

    Lol..I never claimed to be a great person..My sole intention is ONLY to drive away the stereotyping mindset of people,of course only if interested…and im not interested in convincing everybody and turing them muslims 🙂

    • Milind Kher
    • September 30th, 2008

    If people do not believe that expert commentators are needed to interpret the Quran, then they will, logically speaking not get the best exegesis on the subject.

    In that case, there is not much left to discuss. And obviously, if you do not view the Quran as a profound text, don’t give it that importance, and hterefore, don’t worry what is written in it.

  5. Dear Milind/Nimmy

    Yes the discussion goes round and round when people refuse to accept the simple fact that Humanity is the guiding force behind every human thinking .. not some book written long time ago ..

    as per milinds view about experts .. when the source or the book it self says that book doesnt need experts because it is simple ..

    none of you have answered the reason of the violent verses .instead i got many other verses thrown at me ..
    I am not against any religion but its high time that these violent verses shall be reformed and let there be peace .

    • najeeb
    • October 1st, 2008

    Successful indeed is the one who purifies his whole self (91:9)

    EID MUBARAQ TO EVERYONE

    • Milind Kher
    • October 1st, 2008

    Raj,

    I am intrigued about the verses being referred to. I understand they were 9:5 and 9:29. and the circumstances of both have been explained to you. Please specify them again and we will repeat the explanation.

    “Yes the discussion goes round and round when people refuse to accept the simple fact that Humanity is the guiding force behind every human thinking .. not some book written long time ago ..”

    The “simple fact” that you are talking about is YOUR OPINION.
    It is something subjective.

  6. Unethical things cant be justified by calling them circumstansial ..

    circumstanal means — once the circumstances have changed it is irrelevant and shall be changed .

    Facts are not opinions .. facts are universal while opinions are subjective and personal and are based on perception

    • Nimmy
    • October 1st, 2008

    I never heard of any ‘fact’ which is a static one..What is right /wrong today,maybe otherwise tomorrow..So,its lame to argue over,who follows fatcs..

    • nandu
    • October 1st, 2008

    Milind,

    As you pointed out to Raj, what everyone says is subjective, based on their opinion and knowledge. So is the interpretation of the Qur’an or any other religious text.

    So all arguments regarding religion, the existence/ non-existence of God, etc. are based on subjective viewpoints which are true only to the person who holds them. Your truth is not my truth.

    If we all understand this, there shall be no intolerance or violence in this world. Sadly, very few of us do.

  7. nimmy

    2+2 = 4 is fact and it will remain 4 ..
    Ethics is universal .. it wont change and will never change

    • Nimmy
    • October 2nd, 2008

    @Nandu,I see things as you say it..”My truth is not your truth..” Right and wrong,moral and immoral,its all subjective..I may feel homosexuality is immoral,but to a gay he strongly he is right..Like for all cases..

    But can I ask something,since we live in a society,if everybody is entitled to have their own rights and wrongs,how can we get along???

    I believe Quran is God’s word..It is not of my conceren,whether you believe it or not..and I have no issues with you for not believeing in Allah..We have different concepts of religion..so what if we call God by different names..I have no idea why most people in this world are hell bent over compelling others to believe the way they think it right..Even atheists are a form of preachers,who keep arguing that there is no God..They bring lot of arguments and evidences,while thesits too religiously do the same..

    At times i find it funny that I am spending my precious time hair splitting Quran and history 1400 yrs ago..Oh my God,this is very lame..How much effort and time we are spending over this hari-splitting business..What do we gain in the end??You or me may ‘win’ the deabte..What next?? You walk away in content’Yahoooooooooooo,I proved Quran violent”.I may walk away ‘Yeeeeeeehaa,I won the debate,i proved Quran right’…

    Is that going to make some difference to our lives in ANY way????I doubt it..I guess we need to divert our attention and discussion in a different manner..Let me give it a try..

    Good day..Thanks for hanging in 🙂

    • Nimmy
    • October 2nd, 2008

    Raj,

    I disagree totally…

    Ethics :The science of human duty; the body of rules of duty drawn from this science; a particular system of principles and rules concerning duty, whether true or false; rules of practice in respect to a single class of human actions; as, political or social ethics; medical ethics

    Ethics is completely subjective,according to social cultural and ecnomical conditions…

  8. Very desperately needed exercise and kudos to you for having undertaken it.
    As Yaamyn points out on his blog though, the one’s who still can’t see or don’t want to see, are welcome to frequent the forums on rediff instead!

    • Nimmy
    • October 3rd, 2008

    Thanks 1conoclast..I just tried my little part.. Do visit again 🙂

    • Milind Kher
    • October 4th, 2008

    1conoclast,

    The forums on rediff need to be seen to be believed. They are communal beyond a point. Even VHP and RSS seem secular compared to them.

    We are lucky to be on blogs like this.

  9. Dear nimmy

    Ethics is not subjective .. may be you are confused between Morality and ethics .. morality is subjective .. ethics is not
    Morality changes with place and time .. while ehtics is universal .
    for example dont kill or dont steal is ethics and it cant be subjective .

  10. You’re right Mililnd. Good to see you here again. You’re one of the guys I really like on the blogosphere. Such a refreshing change from the rediff types.
    Why don’t you have a blog?

    • Milind Kher
    • October 21st, 2008

    1conoclast, thanks a lot for the compliments. However, I really don’t have the kind of cybertime available to run a blog.

    So, we will keep meeting on these kind of blogs, Inshallah!

    • Nimmy
    • October 21st, 2008

    True iconoc,ast..I too look forward for Milind’s comment as He brings a different dimension to the matter.Its obvious that Milind is a great reader and has lot of knowldge and wisdom..I am amazed at his comments at IM blog to..Thanks Milind for being part of my small world..I am honoured and all readers benefit..Keep coming always.. 🙂

    @Raj,it is not that i didn’t see your comment or that i ignored it..Saw your comment the very day,but sorry i ahve no idea as how to reply to it..lol..No offense meant on that..Good day to all

    p.s :What if i steal from a rich man and give it to a poor man..or what if i steal from a greedy filthy rich person and give it to poor man..Isn’t it morally and ethically fine **scratches head***

    • Milind Kher
    • October 31st, 2008

    Nimmy,

    Thanks for your compliments. Talking of knowldege, the more I know, the more I realize how little I know. And I like your blog because I find it a decent and civilized blog.

    Keep on doing what you are doing

    • Raj
    • November 24th, 2008

    p.s :What if i steal from a rich man and give it to a poor man..or what if i steal from a greedy filthy rich person and give it to poor man..Isn’t it morally and ethically fine **scratches head***

    Sorry it is ethically Wrong , May be Morally some one will glorify it .. but ethically it is wrong

    • sshama
    • February 22nd, 2009

    @Raj:- Its quite simple. Quran says its easy to understand. And it is easy to understand. Unlike vedas or bible or other pre historic book, Quran is quite rational and sensible. Thats how it is easier to undertand compared to other books. If you read the so called violent verses in Quran in context you will understand the meaning.

      • Nimmy
      • February 27th, 2009

      Welcome to my blog Sshama..Sorry for the delay in replying.I thought of replying a little kater,but then missed it..Sorry..

      Salam

    • Milind Kher
    • February 23rd, 2009

    The Quranic verses very much need to be read in accordance with the context in which they are revealed and copious notes too.

    The Quran deserves to be understood and internalized over a period of time, because it was revealed also over a period of time.

      • Nimmy
      • February 27th, 2009

      So true..I am sick of people who quote random verses.

      Quran was not sent an a single email or courier,it was sent over 23 years,in small small parts..It was not the way as it is organized now..chronology of relevation is eniterly different from the form of Quran you see today.Either one should try to read it in complete or not read at all..

    • sshama
    • March 11th, 2009

    Nimmy: No problem….its pleasure to join your blog…looking forward to read more on this blog…

  1. March 21st, 2009

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