“Slay all infidels”..Wow,is Quran so violent???

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay the jizya, then open the way for them (9:5)

 

I stumble upon these verses every now and then..So decided to have a seperate post,instead of messing the comment area,which doesn’t have much readability on its own..

As long as one continue to look at the verses in ISOLATION, they will continue to face this problem of violent Islam.Before we jump into war arena,tell me what will you and me do when we are in a battlefield,fighting for our people and our land..Of course,we are out there to win,bcoz a war happens only when doors of compromise is closed.But will we accompany our enemy to a safe  place if he asks for pardon in between the war?I doubdt how many of us will do that..Well,Allah orders muslims to do so..

  • “If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge.”[Al-Qur’an 9:6]

 

Quran is not a book couriered to Prophet one fine morining..It was sent over 23 years,during various situations..Maybe there is a verse telling you to hold an umbrella ..It may have been sent down during a rainy season..That doesn’t mean you have to hold an umbrella throughout the year.

Surah Tawbah (Chapter 9) containing so called violent verses was revealed in 3 parts

  • The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa’adah A. H. 9
  • The second discourse (vv., 38-72) was sent down in Rajab A. H.
  • The third discourse (vv. 73-I 29) was revealed on his return from the Campaign of Tabuk.

Chapter 9 was revealed when the Pagans broke the Treaty. To the Prophet , the enemies were numerous.  Just for believing in One Allah, muslims were tortured while they tortured none.  It was only after Hijarah, the permission For Qital (war) was given against those coming to oppress Muslims. So were some of the wars when people of Makkah came to attack Muslims. It was never to expand, never to take control of a territory or anything like that. It was the simple effort to preserve that light of Islam and to make it visible.

 

Prophet never wished a war with it’s people. It is done for a purpose. If it were for the land and people, Prophet would call himself as the King which they never wished or did, but their aim is to strive in order to fulfill that light.When Islam spread,The pagans of Makkah felt desperate and that was when the treaty was brokenIt is decisively clear that the war was against certain people who failed Muslims’ treaties and aided others against them. Are muslims to be blamed for fighting such people?

 

If Iran has a peace treaty with America and then Iran plots to attack America and they find out through the spies so you are telling me that America can’t break the treaty???

 

Wasn’t it Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) when he conquered Madina,He forgive every single non combatant??Even when some warriors did not fight,they were also not touched!!!

 

Take each of the verse and study the verses BEFORE and LATER to it.

 For example, the Chapter no. 9, is one chapter which is a series of instructions and responses TO the people (disbelievers) WHO violated the peace treatise with the Muslims. It also discusses people who had to consequently strive against such disbelievers, but who chose NOT to (because they were hypocrites).

In the same manner if you look at the verses in Ch. no. 2, you will find that it is for the people who persecuted the Muslims and DENIED them the right to Pilgrimage.In other places you will find that the fighting the disbelievers is to fight against aggression e.g. Why should you not fight the disbelievers in the way of God, when they oppress the weak, the women and children.So the apparent tone may sound to be inclined towards some sort of warmongering. But in actual it is meant ONLY against the aggressors OR the ones who violate the peace treatise.

 

Can I ask you something,if Allah ordered muslims to slay all non-muslims,

1.How come so many christians live in muslim countries??

2.Why there are 80% Non Muslims in India,even when India was ruled by muslims for over 400yrs??

3.Did u wake this morning knowing that there are 1500 million people in this world who want to kill u??

 

The whole of Quran is to be taken in its own context..The same verse applies true whenever such a similar situation happens.i.e.whenever muslims are attacked first,try to make peace/treaty..If they still keep pestering you,go defend yourself..That is what ALLAH says,atleast that is what i understand..

 

Whoever,may it be any individual or group of people,take the Quran and quote it to suit their motives,are only muslims for namesake..

 

What do you do when you go to a battlefield??Eat pizza with them??

 

  • Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. (2:216)

Most people don’t like fighting, but sometimes it’s the only way to end agression. Maybe you’re so peaceful you won’t do anything to harm those that harm you. But this is even more harmful in the longrun.

 

People quote verses out of context and reference and that distorts the true meaning.However that is never the problem. The biggest problem is that some Muslims conveniently use these verses as and when it suits them. I know that the world rightly looks at what Muslims DO and not at what is in the Quran.By more and more people learning and understanding Islam in the right way,there will be pace on earth..

 

I talk ignoring the facts about oppression against muslims all over the world..Can anybody tell me which Holy book are they using to deal with such cruelity..Tell me what justification can one give for what is happening to women,children,economy of those muslim nations where ‘world police’ went to set things ’striaght’..Can you tell me why they needn’t justify thier acts,unlike we muslims who are set out to talk against sick acts of sick ‘muslims’..So,as far as I understand it,people around,irrespective of caste ,colour and creed are figting for reasons of their own..It is lame to find fault with Quran,bcoz Quran has been here for around more than 1400 years..Do you think muslims grew religious all of a sudden and decided to slay all non believers 🙂

 

P.S:

Just to make it clear that those verses are meant for when in war alone,see these verses:

  • “…If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind”(Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)
  • “Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity” (Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:8)
  • “There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing”(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)

 

Anybody interested in having a quick overview rather than my long rant,can read this short article

 http://www.islamia.com/surah_009.htm

 

Read what Zakir Naik says about these verses

 

A few selected verses from the Qur’an are often misquoted to perpetuate the myth that Islam promotes violence, and exhorts its followers to kill those outside the pale of Islam.

1. Verse from Surah Taubah

The following verse from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality:

  • “Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them.”
    [Al-Qur’an 9:5]

2. Context of verse is during battlefield

Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says:

  • “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful.”[Al-Qur’an 9:5]

This verse is quoted during a battle.

3. Example of war between America and Vietnam

We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: “Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them”. Today if I say that the American President said, “Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them” without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.

4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battle

Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, “Kill the Mushriqs where ever you find them”, during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.

5.Critics find it easy to skip frrom verse 5 to verse 7

6. Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer

Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer to the allegation that Islam promotes violence, brutality and bloodshed. It says:

  • “If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge.”[Al-Qur’an 9:6]

The Qur’an not only says that a Mushriq seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?

This is exactly what Allah (swt) says in the Glorious Qur’an to promote peace in the world.

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  1. What do you mean when you insist that we not look at the verses in ISOLATION? Do you mean look at all the verses in the entire Quran? Or do you mean look at all the historical, archaeological and other evidence of which the Quran is only one piece?

    For example; I don’t know where you got the idea the Meccans were a people who were the worst in the history of mankind, torturing and killing everyone, etc.

    People made pilgrimage to Mecca from all over the Middle East. It was a thriving trade center serving caravans from everywhere, hosting those of all religions including Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, polytheists of all sorts, many with their own temples. By all accounts they were far more tolerant than the modern Saudis.

    • najeeb
    • September 29th, 2008

    Hi Nimmy,

    A necessary post, nicely described.

    • Another Kafir
    • September 29th, 2008

    Interesting that you overlook the obvious. The 9:5, the verse of sword, is the one that starts by saying that when the months have passed. Do you know what that is? It is referring to the months for which the treaty is still valid with some tribes. The ones who broke the treaty got the sword immediately and the ones who did not would get it when the treaty lapsed. Honouring the treaty was good, but he would kill them whereever he found them after the treaty was over anyway. How is that good at all? The 9:6 is equally ridiculous, when the people who are being killed have not committed any crime then why should they ask for asylum? Its no concession, they were to left free to live and not captured to be killed. The ones who did not break the treaty were not at war, these verses were initiating the war.
    And what is the verse saying about telling them the word of allah, this is simply because conversion was the aim. At that time they were too few and needed every muslim in their fold. Thats why violence between muslims and killing of muslims was strictly not allowed.
    What about Banu Quraiza, heard of them? About 600-900 men of their tribe were all beheaded, the younger men and women were taken slaves. Do you know what crime they committed? I could not find any crime of theirs which deserved such a punishment.
    You say the people of his time ate the dead, had no marriage laws and used to drink. First of all, please link to a appropriate place that seconds your claim. Better if it is from one of the tafseers, sirats or hadiths. Secondly, what is wrong with drinking, what is wrong with not having marriage laws, are these such bad crimes to deserve death?
    You speak about India like it had its boundaries all the time, India used to last from Afganistan to the current Indian territory. Are there 80% Hindus as you say? What about the story of the execution of the Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur? Indians were very religious, they offered large sums of money to avoid their temples from being broken, they paid jizya for a long time, a tax which I presume you support by the powers vested in you by the Quran.
    Many of these activities were not same as dropping the pizza and picking up the spear at the time of war kind of things. These were violent agressions.

      • yeh!!
      • May 3rd, 2009

      Well said Another kafir, I am late as was not knowing of this blog

      Nimmy

      The proof India ruled till maximum stretch of world.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_of_India and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rajendra_map_new.png u must be aware of King Rajendra chola from this link u will come to know till where he ruled

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tak%E1%B9%A3a%C5%9Bil%C4%81 from this link a part saying:-

      “Legend has it that Taksha, an ancient king who ruled in a kingdom called Taksha Khanda (Tashkent) founded the city of Takshashila.[citation needed] The word Takshashila, in Sanskrit means “belonging to the King Taksha”. Taksha was the son of Bharata and Mandavi, from Indian epic Ramayana.” If u know the Tashkent is in Uzbekistan which previously called as Taksha Khanda.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization text content:-

      The Indus Valley Civilization (mature period 2600–1900 BCE), abbreviated IVC, was an ancient civilization that flourished in the Indus River basin. Primarily centered along the Indus river, the civilization encompassed most of Pakistan, including its Sindh, Punjab and Balochistan provinces, and extending into modern day Indian states of Gujarat, Haryana, Punjab and Rajasthan. Remains have been excavated from Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Iran, as well. The mature phase of this civilization is technically known as the Harappan Civilization, after the[1] first of its cities to be unearthed: Harappa in Pakistan. Excavation of IVC sites have been ongoing since 1920, with important breakthroughs occurring as recently as 1999.

      The civilization is sometimes referred to as the Indus Ghaggar-Hakra civilization[3] or the Indus-Sarasvati civilization. The appellation Indus-Sarasvati is based on the possible identification of the Ghaggar-Hakra River with the Sarasvati River mentioned in the Rig Veda,[4] but this usage is disputed on linguistic and geographical grounds.

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg Map covering … all the bullshit …istans which were under Indian rule

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire have text-

      At its greatest extent, the Empire stretched to the north along the natural boundaries of the Himalayas, and to the east stretching into what is now Assam. To the west, it reached beyond modern Pakistan, annexing Balochistan and much of what is now Afghanistan, including the modern Herat and Kandahar provinces. The Empire was expanded into India’s central and southern regions by the emperors Chandragupta and Bindusara, but it excluded a small portion of unexplored tribal and forested regions near Kalinga(modern Orissa).

      India did ruled till Afganistan and so it comes under INDIAN-SUBCONTINENT.hope u also got an Idea why Subcontinent is named after India.

      I hope u atleast know pakistan was part of India.

      You saying 80% are hindu in India now can YOU recount and make any balance in hindu population all over the Indian subcontinent.Will you request muslim countries to make equal amount of hindu population in there countries.If not why we should.
      India is a Hindu country it should have 100% hindus. In fact remaining 20% are like termite eatting & distroying hinduland and its heritage, by doing forceful conversions, and are slow posion.

      You said go and take revenge with Aurangzeb. I say you go back and change your people history.Forget history, what about today, why kashmiri Pandits where forced to leave there ancestors house, many hindus were brutally killed.They didnt do harm to anyone.
      I think you would want this to happen rapidly as number of hindus is 80%.

      Tell me one thing if I come to ur home for stay and slowly I get my family my friends my relatives, and deny to leave ur house what you will do. I dont think u calmly let us live.

      You tell me what Islam has given to world other then violence. Do you yourself know what religion u belong to., there were many forceful conversion done in India and temples were destroyed during mughal period.Brahmans were main target as they were the head of Hindu rituals and customs. Only Islam and Christianity does forceful conversion and both religion shared many common thinks. And both of the religions actually want to dominate world, may it be right way or wrong way that doesn’t matter to this religions.look at other religion like Buddhism these are actually peace loving and peace spreading religions.

      And yes when I wake in morning i feel that there are 1500 million people in this world who want to kill us if not today may be tomorrow may not all together but in parts.. 26/11 is fresh example.

      If u really Love and want peace in India take all muslims to MUSLIM-FRIENDLY Countries. At least people will move on to other problems India facing.,like poverty and illiteracy.

      Separate from topic I also would like to know why kumkum and yoga is considered haram in Islam, as it never do any harm u can see how yoga is benefiting all over world and kumkum was actually use to keep blood pressure in control and was used by all Hindu males females on there forehead.

      Expecting a reply and hoping u will not delete the post.

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    Thanks watercat..I think that was an exxagerated stuff.I have removed it 🙂 Pls don’t being Saudis into this..They are very hypocritical people,have a different version of islam..

    What do you mean when you insist that we not look at the verses in ISOLATION?
    Do you mean look at all the verses in the entire Quran?

    Exactly..Not that you have to look into all 6000+ ayaths..What am saying is,when you look into a particular subject,take into account all its related verse-may it be alchohol,marrigae,war or Zakat..so,when you talk of zakat,take into account all related verses and understand it..

    I hope that clear

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    Ak,

    The 9:5, the verse of sword, is the one that starts by saying that when the months have passed. Do you know what that is? It is referring to the months for which the treaty is still valid with some tribes. The ones who broke the treaty got the sword immediately and the ones who did not would get it when the treaty lapsed. Honouring the treaty was good, but he would kill them whereever he found them after the treaty was over anyway. How is that good at all

    I have no idea what you are saying..Sorry about that..Where did you get the idea that war was to be waged against even to those people who didn’t break treaty??Am i missing something…

    009.004
    YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

    I wonder how did you get the opposite menaing????????????

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    Ak,

    The 9:6 is equally ridiculous, when the people who are being killed have not committed any crime then why should they ask for asylum? Its no concession, they were to left free to live and not captured to be killed. The ones who did not break the treaty were not at war, these verses were initiating the war.

    What???????

    009.006
    YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

    The verse is talking about Pagans,who broke treaty and who are under war now..Sorry,I don’t see any such stuff as you say..

    Tell me the source from where you got all this information,so that i may also read more and enlighten myself more..Pls provide the link from which you got this information that war was declared even at people who did’t break the treaty and that Pagans who broke treaty and kept attacking the muslims were instead inncoent ‘white small sheeps’…Then i’ld agree that this is all violent- war initiating- for no purpose at all -verses..

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    You say the people of his time ate the dead, had no marriage laws and used to drink. First of all, please link to a appropriate place that seconds your claim. Better if it is from one of the tafseers, sirats or hadiths

    I have removed those parts since I can’t bring any particular source.I got such a view from lot of reading,but i don’t want to impose it on anybody,so i prefer to remove those lines..

    Secondly, what is wrong with drinking, what is wrong with not having marriage laws, are these such bad crimes to deserve death?

    I didn’t say war was waged for these reasons..I told Meccans were like that..If you find no issues with a society like that,I don’t know what to comment..

    What about Banu Quraiza, heard of them? About 600-900 men of their tribe were all beheaded, the younger men and women were taken slaves. Do you know what crime they committed? I could not find any crime of theirs which deserved such a punishment

    Paret (Paret, Mohammed under Koran)and Watt (Muhammad at Medina)say that the Banu Qurayza were killed not because of their faith but for “treasonable activities against the Medinan community”.(Watt, Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman) Watt relates that “no important clan of Jews was left in Medina”but he and Paret also note that Muhammad did not clear all Jews out of Medina..(The Encyclopedia Judaica (Vol. XI, col. 1212) estimates the Jewish population of Medina at 8,000 to 10,000. Barakat Ahmad (p. 43) calls this an understatement and calculates that there still remained 24,000 to 28,000 Jews in Medina, after the demise of the Qurayza. These figures are cited by Peters (Muhammad and the Origins of Islam, p. 301 (note 41): “According to Ahmad, whose estimate of the Jewish population at 36,000-42,000 has already been cited, the departure of the Banu Nadir and the decimation of the Banu Qurayza would still have left between 24,000-28,000 Jews at Medina.”)

    Aiming at placing the events in their historical context, Watt points to the “harsh political circumstances of that era” and argues that the treatment of Qurayza was regular Arab practice.Similar statements are made by Stillman, Paret(Paret, Mohammed und der Koran)] and Rodinson.(Rodinson, Muhammad: Prophet of Islam)

    Read more from a non islamic source as it will be more convincing to you
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

    You speak about India like it had its boundaries all the time, India used to last from Afganistan to the current Indian territory

    First time in my life i am hearing that the cause of reduced boundaries is Quran..lol..Sorry,i leave it to your discretion as to belive in reasons for reduced boundaries..Any history readings related to it brought will be much appreciated.I promise I’ll change my opinion regarding this and honour yours..

    What about the story of the execution of the Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur?

    WE are talking about Quran and not muslims..So,don’t relate action of fanatics to Allah..If Aurangzeb did that,pls go take revenge on him….Even I can bring you loads of muslims executed ,tortured,humiliated etc etc(not only in history,but even to this day) by non muslims..The list maybe infinite..Bringing it here would be diverting from topic..

  2. @ AK, you could just point to
    9:3. A general proclamation is made this day of the Greater Pilgrimage on the part of God and His Apostle, that God is not bound by any contract to idolaters, nor is His Apostle.

    It’s kind of pointless to argue about it because obviously people can and do interpret these verses to mean whatever they want them to mean. The winners write the history books. Some people will believe George Bush saying he was justified to attack Iraq, and some people will believe Mohammed saying he was justified to attack Mecca.

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    Watercat,can you pls tell me which translation are you using,bcoz i can’t find such a translation in any of popular and authentic ones..

    009.003
    YUSUFALI: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
    PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
    SHAKIR: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

    And yes I totally agree to your point..History is HIS-STORY..So its all personal perspectives..But we have no other choice other than to make our own conclusions after lot of reading because we can’t make use of time machine to go back to that period and watch and understand things on our own..

  3. Guys!!(Not just Nimmy but watercat and AK too)

    In trying to solve an issue it seems you are creating more.

    Is it impossible to look at something written 1400 years old as relevant to those times and not to be taken literally 1400 years later.

    I saw an interesting french film the other day. A jew and a muslim fall in love in France. and the Jewish girl’s family wants the boy to convert. He is told that to be a true jew he needs to follow seven rules. They began with:

    Dont tell lies
    Dont kill anyone
    Believe in God..

    etc…

    U know whats funny, all religions would have agreed with those tenets. If that be so, why are we debating it so much?

    The literal translations are not important whats important is to understand the spirit of the word and the need of the day which is Peace and brotherhood.

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    **sigh***

    True pinku..It is not very relevant to discuss something that happened 1000 of years ago..I wrote this post bcoz some people still cling on to these stuff and i am sick of seeing these verses in every froum i visit..

    You are right..The right way is to emulate the spirit of God’s word,whoever it is,and to strive for peace and brotherhood..

  4. What happened to my other post? I asked:

    When you say not to look at verses in isolation, do you mean also look at other verses in the koran while ignoring other archaeological and historical and other evidence?

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    Watercat,so i hope you are convinced with the other part,to which i answered….Thanks..

    Can you pls elaborate as to what is the “other archaeological and historical and other evidence ” you are reffering to??

    • virtualopinion
    • September 29th, 2008

    I know what I say won’t be liked but I will still say it. My take is that God did not make us; we have made the God for our convenience.

    All the books including Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Bible and Quran are written by human beings and not by God.

    I am not trying to deny the existence of a super natural power but that is just a natural power like the power of water, wind or fire. We have demeaned the concept of God to a level where he almost sounds like your school principal who will tell you what to do and when.

    The linkage established by the religious leaders between the God and its messenger had no basis and therefore every religion is extremely touchy about anyone who questions the very basis of the religion.

    Breaking our head and loosing our peace of mind on what God wants us to do is nothing but stupid. We have been trained or rather brainwashed that way – do what God says, do what his messengers say, do what your parents say, do what your teachers say, do what your elders say, do what the law says, do what the government says, do what the doctor says, do what everyone says…. Just don’t do what you really feel like doing. That’s forbidden. That’s sin.

    It really makes me sad how billions of people are living under the self imposed slavery. Why? Everyone wants to go to the heaven by pleasing the God. And what will you do there? Enjoy life… So you want to make your life hell in this life with the hope of enjoying your stay in the heaven..

    People who think like me are called an atheist of an agnostic. Atheist – one who doesn’t believe in God…As if it is such a negative an unnatural thing to do? It is because people like me are in minority. Yes, Muslims and Christians are not in minority, Atheists are in minority. There is no difference between Hindu, Muslims and Christians. They are one and the same medicine formula being sold under different brand names.

    Who says we are more developed now? Those who wrote these books thousands of years back were much smarter. They created the Matrix thousands of years back. Noone can escape this Matrix, noone has freedom of choice. You are all prisoners of this Matrix. You are born a prisoner. The branding may be different – some may be hindu, some muslims and some christians, but all are slaves. Most will say, they are what they are by choice, but in this Matrix you have not freedom of choice. You are what you are because you have no choice. The only choice you may have is to choose your prison.

    I know, no one will agree with me. That’s why I am sad. I would like to quote a couplet of Kabir –

    “sukhiya sab sansaar hai khaye aur soye,
    dukhiya daas kabir hai jage aur roye.”

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    Virtualopinion,in fact your comment makes lot of sense..I don’t know how to reply to it as i am neither spiritually or intellectually on the higher level..

    Err..yours words are really haunting me..I agree religion as of today causes lot of problems..But would this world be heaven if all of us were atheists?

    • virtualopinion
    • September 29th, 2008

    All are at equal level. You don’t have to be at a higher level to see the truth. You just need to open your eyes. It is there for you and everyone else to see. Noone has to teach you that. You are the master of your soul. Noone is above you and noone is below you.

    The concept of heaven is a mirage to lure people. There is nothing like permanent happiness. If there was, it would no longer be called happiness. There is no heaven there is no hell. It is all in our mind.

    Why are we concerned what the world would be? You are asking this question not because you want to be an athiest or you are worried about the world. You are worried about yourself. You are trying to find an excuse for not leaving your place. That’s the effect of the Matrix. It won’t let you go. It will try to trick your brain. It will make you ask thousands of question and think of thousands of reasons for not escaping from this prison. It is there for you to see by just opening your eyes. But the matrix won’t let you open your eyes because you are in a dream world where you think your eyes are open. Where you think you can see what is happening around you. But no… that’s not the real world.. you will see the real world only when you open your eyes…The question is – Can you open your eyes.. What I am telling you is like the telephone bell that rings in the film Matrix. Pick-up the phone….

    • Nimmy
    • September 29th, 2008

    Virtualopinion..I feel elated reading your comment..Infact I have nothing against you..I agree that I am inside a self made prison..But I am not hurting anybody either..So should it matter to anybody else..I belive,as long as people keep religion a personal business,it is well and fine..Problems arouse when one tries to impose..I am sure i am not of that fanatic type..Am I ?In that case am I not jsutified in believing in something i fell good about??

    Im just asking..maybe its silly and shallow thoughts..I never thought the way you talk about,though it makes sense to me personally..

    • virtualopinion
    • September 29th, 2008

    You are hurting yourself. That’s more important.

    You said you feel good about it. Even that is imposed on you. You have no other choice.You must not only do what the master says you must also feel good about it.Not a good example in this context but explains the concept well.Old jungle saying – “If rape is inevitable then you might as well enjoy it.” That’s my take on feeling good.

    • Another Kafir
    • September 29th, 2008

    Sorry I was away, I will address what has been raised by you. Regarding Banu Qurayza, treasonable activities against the muslims is no reasons to attack them without declaration of a war, take them under seige and kill all the adult males number about 1000. If it was an Arab practice, God definitely would have known better, he stopped Mo from helping the lady who was hit by her husband saying hitting the wife was allowed, he could have stopped this from happening.
    Regarding 9:5
    9:4 reads (Yusuf Ali) “(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.”
    9:5 “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

    Ok now read the tafsir al jalayan,
    9:4 “Excepting those of the idolaters with whom you have made a pact, and who have not diminished [their commitment to] you in anyway, with regard to the terms of the pact, nor supported, assisted, anyone, from among the disbelievers, against you; [as for these] fulfil your pact with them until, the completion of, the term, to which you have agreed. Truly God loves those who fear [Him], by fulfilling pacts.”
    9:5 “Then, when the sacred months have passed — that is, [at] the end of the period of deferment — slay the idolaters wherever you find them, be it during a lawful [period] or a sacred [one], and take them, captive, and confine them, to castles and forts, until they have no choice except [being put to] death or [acceptance of] Islam; and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush, [at every] route that they use (kulla, ‘every’, is in the accusative because a [preceding] genitive-taking preposition has been removed). But if they repent, of unbelief, and establish prayer and pay the alms, then leave their way free, and do not interfere with them. God is Forgiving, Merciful, to those who repent.”

    Reading these, it is clear that the forbidden months are the ones in which they are bound by the treaty not to attack. After these forbidden months the attack is prescribed, which need not be initiated.

    • Another Kafir
    • September 29th, 2008

    Regarding what I would feel about a tribe which does not follow marriage laws etc., it is not a reason to wage war on that nation, period.
    And regarding the Quran being responsible for the boundaries of India, that is not what I was saying, I was saying that there are not 80% Hindus in the India that was, now the India is conviniently truncated from the west side, that is why the 80% emerges. You are right that Aurangzeb was one of the main people who did what happened and the execution of Guru Tegh Bahadur. This was necessary to mention because you were using history to justify that muslims have been peaceful, which is not the case at all.
    Now when I look back at the post that part seems to be edited out.

    • Another Kafir
    • September 29th, 2008

    No, you have mentioned it in your post, it is still there.

  5. and I see the debate goes on…very interesting point that virtual opinion has made.

    by the way u been tagged…so quickly to comply 🙂

    • Milind Kher
    • September 29th, 2008

    If indeed, the verses of the Quran are to be taken literally, and without any reference to circumstances or context, Muslims have failed miserably in carrying out the order to “slay all infidels”. In that case, almost every Muslim is a bad Muslim – lol!!

    Nimmy, please be ashamed of me. I have never killed a single infidel todate. Worse still, I never even call anybody an infidel 🙂

    • Vineeth
    • September 29th, 2008

    lol…. @ virtualopinion… in a lighter vein, there are many Neos around too!!!, you need to only look to find them 🙂

  6. After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.AldousHuxleyAldous Huxley

    • vinod
    • September 30th, 2008

    Muslims have created a vicious cycle for themselves by claiming that Quran is the book of God.

    The book is 1400 yrs old and most of the cultural and social aspects written in it, cannot be followed now. But since muslims believe that its the book of God, they live by it without changing even a single letter.

    3/4 of the worlds population is adapting to 21st century and muslims still live life based on a book written 1400 yrs ago.

    And when the 3/4 th of the world gets angry becoz of the 1/4th insistence that their’s is the right way to live……..Muslims feel they are victimized and harassed.

    Honestly, what else do u expect?

    • Milind Kher
    • October 1st, 2008

    Vinod,

    The Quran has never asked the Muslims not to be progressive. They have chosen not to be so.

    An obsession with rituals and religious polemics has been the undoing of the Ummah.

    • vinod
    • October 1st, 2008

    QUOTE> The Quran has never asked the Muslims not to be progressive. They have chosen not to be so. < UNQUOTE

    It doesnt matter as long as the end result is the same. I was just trying to give an explanation for Nimmy’s frustrations and confusions on why muslims are hounded day and night.

    A majority of problems that muslims face today can be attributed to the following….

    1. Placing religion above everything…..Friends,Family,Country.

    Muslim’s beliefs are not in sync with the rest of mankind.

    Forget everything, we all know how much problems muslims face in India today….do you guys have any social setup within your communities that strives to uplift the community and bring it on par with others?

    No, the only setup there is….are the mullahs….whose greatest worry is the length of Sania Mirza’s skirt,Salman dancing to Ganesh Utsav and Kalam quoting verses from Gita.

    How can the hindus,government or any other NGOs help a community when it itself is not interested in developing?

    • najeeb
    • October 2nd, 2008

    Vinod,

    A few organisations on the front are MES, MSS, etc working in Kerala for at least last 50 years. One of the accusations they face is that such groups are trying to secure more for the muslims in terms of colleges and schools than deserving.

    So on one side, Muslims are told that they have only mullahs and not one for uplifting their social status while on the other side, they are told that they are trying to extract more than what they should have!!

    • Milind Kher
    • October 2nd, 2008

    @Vinod,

    You are very right. Nobody is working towards education and upliftment, and increasing awareness within the community.

    The length of Sania Mirza’s skirt is not important, her GAME is important. It does NOT matter if Kalam quotes from the Geeta.

    Yet, the very fact that there is a Kalam and there is a Sania Mirza means that Muslims are trying to excel and leave a mark on the country. They must be encouraged.

    • watercat
    • October 2nd, 2008

    vinod, it’s so funny…Here we have few muslims and they never cause any problems; but you could have written your same post only substitute ‘christians’ ….

    Extremists are everywhere …

    • Nimmy
    • October 2nd, 2008

    Ak,I don’t edit anybody’s comments 🙂

    I never told that ‘muslims are angels on earth’..All I conveyed was that most muslims are as peaceful as any other ethnic group..Just as rotten apples exist among any subgroup,there exists the same in muslim community too..again,they have no right to use any law or holy book to justify their evil acts..
    They are not any holy people as to deal with them in like way..Bloody criminals should be shot dead..Those who try to write fate of others,have no right to live on the surface of earth..This holds true for all clod blooded fanatics,irrespective of caste color and creed..By poiniting fingers,we are going nowhere..

    • Nimmy
    • October 2nd, 2008

    Vinod..thanks for your comments..It makes lot of sense..Sorry for being late to reply as i was too busy these Eid days..

    The curse of muslims is that there isn’t a good leadership..Yeah,i know its easy to criticise..Still,i wish there had been a uniting force or organization as to talk and stand for muslims..Since intellectual and educated class doesn’t do it,the whole world looks upon scholars and imams and finally their personal views,become words of whole muslim community..I don’t mean that all scholars are radical..Still,there are many..Though Quran has laws more than just pretaining to persoanl life.,i still feel there need to be a fine line drawing state and religion.It is when religious stuff takes over being a state rule,that then intolerance to people not belonging to the group emerges..

    No system is err-free..Still democracy is the better way out..Err…isn’t what we have in India mobocracy rather than democracy??Almost all people does what they want to..I don’t think such a system will be successful..Our nation had withheld all values throughout all times..I hope we’ll come of this chaoistic condition as soon as possible..

    • Nimmy
    • October 2nd, 2008

    Milind,what Vinod says is something relaistic,isn’t it..Even I feel sick whn some so called fatwas are issued in regard to skirts and festivals..I’ll say it loud and clear that nobody can prevent me from participating in in other faith’s festivals..I used to wear bindhi and sandal paste during onam and like celebrations in our college..My friends used to ask me’oh you are a hypociritcal muslim’..I reply,”Thanks for the compliment..I am hypocritical,still i am proud that my faith is not something to get eroded away ,just by a 2 mg of sandal paste or 1mm diameter bindhi..

    Majority,but minority atleast in my place ,are too rigid..maybe they don’t know the hadith that rigidity in religion is disliked..I am glad that people like you and Najeeb are open minded and maybe we can spread the message in a more effective manner..Good day to you..

    • Nimmy
    • October 2nd, 2008

    Najeeb,great point..Though I have a difference in opinion that MES (Muslim educational society) can be run in a better manner,the owrk they do is commendable..We need more organizations like them..Ever thought why muslims are not running schools,hospitals and like as christians do???Muslims too have great pool of resources right?Why do we lack the will power as to make social activities full fleged like christians do????????If we did that way,it would be a great step isn’t it..But the question is,”Who will take up the initiative”…

    As Vinod said it right,we need more social setups within ourselves,rather than complaining..There is lot that we can do..

    • Nimmy
    • October 2nd, 2008

    Watercat,exactly..Extremists exist in different forms in different communities..Instead of pointing fingers,we need to work out solutions,bcoz the stage of ‘making things alright just by criticising’ has gone..Now its time for us to act,in the right effective way..Good day..

    • Milind Kher
    • October 4th, 2008

    Nimmy,

    You are absolutely right. These people have no right to go about issuing fatwas right, left and center on things that do not concern them.

    It provides a very wrong impression of the religion as well as the community.

    And there is nothing wrong in wearing the bindi and in celebrating Onam. We have to be broad minded to function as a valid part of a larger society.

  7. Nimmy…

    I just wanted to say that you have a wonderful blog going, with wonderful content & wonderful purpose!

    Keep up the education efforts!

    • Nimmy
    • October 8th, 2008

    Thanks 1conoclast 🙂

    I am just making a small effort and i hope the message reaches as many hearts as possible..

    Keep coming ..Good day..

    • Vineeth SB
    • October 15th, 2008

    Just found this while browsing, thought it apt to put it here….

    hope all like it…
    Love is Freedom
    That is what Jesus said when he let out the doves, as they say in the Bible, meant for sacrifice. He set them free. “Don’t kill them to show your love for God, set them free in your love for God.”

    Vineeth,i am so sorry i missed to reply to your comment..Actually i wanted to say something long and hence kept it for a free time..Will reply soon..Sorry -Nimmy

    • ameyawaghmare
    • October 28th, 2008

    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29
    I am sorry but I fail to see anywhere in this line that it mentions precisely those who had broke the treaty. Any religious Muslim will take all the verses of violence above and at other places as an excuse to violence. If you say all this has to be understood in context, then why are small children made to undergo this education at a young age?They certainly don’t understand the context, but rather the killings.
    The suicide bombers are all a product of education systems where they were taught such verses in their childhood, mostly from Saudi Arabia, Algeria, or Taliban and other such places with bad education.
    Regarding all these verses and teachings, http://www.faithfreedom.org and http://www.wikiislam.com tell some truth. You ought to check them.Zakir Naik’s lies are exposed at Faith Freedom.
    And yes, Muslims have ruled over India. Then why are 80% Non-Muslims alive? Tell me, why the 20% Muslims, whose ancestors originally are hindus, are now Muslims?It is jizya.
    Tell me why most of them charged Jizyah? And if you want to say, Muslims have ruled, then please accept that imperialism is a concept of Muslims. Today, Britishers say they had imperialised many countries, they dont say Christians.
    And above all, a simple observation, all Muslim terrorists are religious and they get a martyrs feeling killing innocent children. It is your imams, and shahi imams, clerics, maulana, maulavi, who take the lead in hateful speeches, or in brainwashing. Why isn’t fatwa against Bin Laden or other terrorist groups? THey do most controversial things, and liberal Muslims like the most bollywood stars are good humans.
    In short, A Muslim,the far he is from Islam, is more trustworthy.

    • archi
    • April 30th, 2009

    Hello Nimmy,

    I am from India. there’s some lines in the post saying Muslims ruled for 400yrs in India.and Muslims are not up to killing the whole world,though major terrorist attacks are done by them in whole world. .And can you tell me how many% of Hindus are there in Pakistan or other Muslim countries. For ur information the country was/is a Hindu country in fact there should be only Hindus in this country,the country was named after King Bharat who ruled till Afghanistan,(from this u can make out why it comes under INDIAN-SUBCONTINENT), Muslims were invaders,doing forceful conversions, raping the women, looting them, demolishing the temples and have come till north India.
    Persian king attacked India envious of its great success in all the subjects like science, mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, literature, politics..
    What do you expect., already muslims have snatched major part of our country,then present day India. Even today in Kashmir Hindus are tortured and forced to leave there ancestors house and property, What you expect from us, we should give all our land our heritage to u so u can destroy it or put ur name on it. Why Al Biruni the famous scientist.., refer the site(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%AB_Rayh%C4%81n_al-B%C4%ABr%C5%ABn%C4%AB and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata)used Aryabhata and Bramhagupta’s scriptures for studies and translated them into Arabic languages, means Muslims will take or snatch good things from us, but will not be thankful

    Why Allah didn’t gave all this knowledge to u( Islamist), whereas he found time to come down and tell how many women to marry, u should follow Islam, do prayers for him and bla-bla..
    If Allah is the ultimate of all the creations, and has control of everything. then why he let form other religions, I was really shocked when i read that Allah gave msgs for forceful conversion, looting and killing ppl..I would say your Allah is selfish or Islam followers want dominance of their religion in whole world.

    One more thing, against the topic but, if u follow islam u will go to heaven inspite of killing innocent ppl, one of my Muslim friend said if u follow islam u will be in heaven n there will gals dancing for u, u will have lot lot of liquor, and all men will be of 31 age… doesnt it sound like a fairy tale or goodnight story, and having liquor and watching gals dance is sin on earth then it has to be sin in heaven also. Its like made to fit ur taste.

    Recently an incident happen in PAK, a girl was beaten for speaking to a person who was not her husband or brother. do u thing it was fair.This is what Islam teaches.Those who are doing this are insulting Allah and Holy Islam.

    God has made us to discover his creation. and we are destroying it and insulting him. There are many many drawbacks in Hindu culture also, but its not a threat to world.
    I apologize to insult Islam and Allah. And my god will surely punish me for doing this.

    I want to ask u one thing “do you yourself know what ur religion is” as many were forced to follow islam if not they were killed., u or ur ancestors could be one of them… after ur death when god say u were not a Muslim. u belong to some other religion and u have betrayed ur religion. I am happy that I am in such religion which don’t believe in religion conversion, at least I know I am pure.

    http://www.islam-watch.org/ see this u will know many Muslims have changed there religion. one of them is Amar Khan from Pakistan

    • ign
    • February 10th, 2010

    Hello nimmy,

    When I read this article, call it news, on this kafir and others and then went on to read some comments. My first thought was these are kids and no need to write. But your position on verse of the sword is completely wrong. That might have been told you by an apologist. Then again seeing you put up that chapter 109, I felt you do not know holy Koran, but seeing you talk about 9.5 changed that.

    First, kafir is singular and plural is kuffar, kafir is used to refer to non muslims. Then again there are categories in this: people of scripture(Jews and Christians) and idolaters(pagans and Hindus).

    Now come to phrases like the land of Islam and the land of War. These are the only categories in the beginning of Islamic history(Prophets time). The other category, the land of peace, was invented by modern day apologists.

    The deobandi are one extremist organization and it is good if you do not follow them or listen to them, because this is the ideology
    which gave rise to Taliban. They are brain dead actually.

    I liked the way you wrote about praying. You are one peaceful but ignorant. Actually what made you to start this blog discussing Islamic theology? What is your age? Any way you quoted many verses from chapter 109. But do you know they do not hold any meaning according to abrogation? Like, your religion to you and mine is to me. This was replaced by 9:005.

    You mentioned about context. What context you are talking about? Remember Koran is word of Allah for eternity and valid always. So there is nothing like historical context available to you. Now textual context? Yes it might help understanding some verses like 33:26 and 33:27. The reason I mentioned these two is because they refer to a particular incident and I hope you will know it. But how much context must be considered to understand some verses, the whole Holy Koran. The way to read Koran is not to read the way it was written or printed. You should consider chronological order of chapters and according to this you should read. Then you will get the grasp of Islam and holy Koran.

    Being a Hindu I have no problem if a Muslim is calling me kafir. But I have a problem with holy Koran and Islam itself. It literally dehumanizes kuffar and hundreds of times it refers to this and calls them by many names like liers, unclean, worst of the creatures , vilest of the animals and many more. Now tell me what context you will bring to these? It even tells Muslims not to make friend ship with infidels (Kuffar). You know Islam is the only religion who categorizes like this, Muslim and Kafir, the land of islam and the land of war.

    Now come to 9:5, verse of the sword. It has nothing to do with treaty of Hudaybiyah. Prophet broke the treaty many times himself
    and in the 8th year of hijra, he conquered Mecca and in the 9th year of hijra this Sura was revealed to Prophet. At this time he was the defacto ruler of Arabian Peninsula. Check from sources like Al Tabari and Ibn Ishaq, both Muslim devotees. I suggest you read from here:

    http://www.islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/Challenge-to-Close-Islam-watch-Debate-on-Sword-Verse.htm

    Here they give you all the quotes and historical sources from hadiths and sirat.

    Now what does this verse refer to? It is how Islam relates to non Muslims.

    I give you an explanation: Order the Koran according to chronological order. Then start collecting the verses saying about infidels. When you are done with this and if we apply rule of abrogation we will have only chapter 9, because it is the last chapter or last but one. Because in the next chapter succor, sura 110, there is no mention of infidels at all. So it is chapter 9 how Islam should deal with infidels. It is verse 9.5. Why do you think it is called verse of the sword.

    Read this another quote from Alsaylu Jarar (4:518-519) by Al-Shawkani. Shawkani is a famous writer on Islamic matters. His writings are authoritative and are used by the Jihadis to justify their merciless actions.

    “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jizya tax (protection money for the Jews and the Christians only) or being killed. The verse about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case”

    Jalaluddin Suyuti wrote Itqan fi ‘ulum-il-Qur´an in 1497 AD. This book is the Tafsir (explanation) of Qur´an and is highly regarded. It is a compulsory reading for any one who wants to study Qur´an for its ‘real meanings’. His another famous book is Istenbat al-Tanzeel. In this book

    Suyuti wrote,”everything in the Qur´an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5″.

    Read from a modern translator (Yusuf Ali is too old) of the Qur´an and Hadith.

    “So at first ‘the fighting’ was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory against those who start ‘the fighting’ against you (Muslims) and against all those who worship others along with Allah”.

    (Ref. Introduction section of the English translation of Sahih Bukhari by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Medina Islamic University).

    In the same section Dr M. Muhsin Khan writes further

    , “Then Allah revealed in Sura Bara’at (9) the order to discard (all) the obligations (covenants, etc.) and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the people of the scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizya (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians who do not embrace Islam and are under the protection of an Islamic government) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (9:29). So they (Muslims) were not permitted to abandon ‘ethe fighting’ against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the possibility of fighting against them.”

    The verses you wrote from sura 109 have no meaning nor any standing. Jihadis know better because scholars who teach them know the truth.

    If you want truth about sura 9, read from English translations of Al Tabari: The last years of The Prophet and Ibn Ishaq’s sirat rasul allah.

  1. March 21st, 2009

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