Pragmatics between moral police and one’s freedom of expression

 

Thanks to Solilo for bringing my attention into this news,where women are religiously beating up a girl,in the name of a tattoo.

 A Pakistani national, who had come to pursue a course in production from Whistling Woods International Institute in Mumbai, was beaten up at a Malad mall last week for sporting a tattoo in Urdu on her back. The incident scared the girl so much that she left for Pakistan on Friday.

Some women suddenly approached her and assaulted her over the tattoo which read ‘Shukr Alham Du Lillah’, meaning ‘Thank you, God’. They slapped the girl several times before the mall management intervened.

 

This is a complex issue where people mix common sense with religious sentiments.[As is the same case when SRS mixed common sense with cultural sentiments].Neverthless,questions unanswered will promote further issues and breed more hate.I am trying to look into this,as how I feel it right,please feel free to disagree.

 

Firstly,my message to those women,who think that they are guardians of Islam-followed by 1.5 billion people..Please mind your own business and bother about your own fate,before you poke at somebody else’s nose .YOUR ‘RIGHT’ ,and ‘WRONG’ is just yours and nobody else’s.If you think that you have the right to trash people based on YOUR RIGHT,please go shut yourself in a cave and never come back..Instead,if you feel that your sentiments,may it be religious,cultural or policitcal,are hurt,talk to the concerned party.If they agree with YOUR RIGHT,be happy and go home,drink a pepsi.If they choose not to agree with YOUR RIGHT,go home tear a pillow and get rid of your frustration and drink a lassi and relax. Just in case you think that Allah has asked you to take role of HARAM POLICE,please know that we the people who understand the real spirit of islam are no longer shikhandis,who are impotent to act and react.No longer acan you delude us by quoting the infinite hadiths which have nothing to do with Islam.So,stop minding others business and if you are indeed worried about the girl’s fate of going to hell because she wore a tattoo,please have the liberty of going home and pray 2 rakat prayer for her .Let God decide it for her-you needn’t take his role.

 

 

Secondly,I would like to bring your attention into a more complex topic in muslim world,where people make anything and everything haram(forbidden) ..AS like in every community,muslim world too have a set of people who say ‘chi chi,this is haram’,’chi chi,that is haram’ ,’ chi chi,everything is haram’..They make music haram,they make painting haram,they make eye brow shaping haram,they make television haram,they are hell bent over moral policing people and hence the name ‘Haram police’.In my experience, regardless of what religion it is, you see the righteous become the wicked in their attempts to be more righteous.But among muslims,the issue is more complex,because everybody has a hadith to quote as to claim their stand.To beginners,hadiths are man-written oral narrations relating to words and deeds of Prophet.Hadiths were complied 200 years after Prophet’s death.Putting it simple,hadith is a saying ‘Prohet’s wife’s servant’s brother’s aunty’ said that she saw Phophet saying so”.Hadiths are classified as strong,weak and fabricated.Over years of reading,I have understood that whatever,be it the controversial topics in Islam,it is attributed to hadiths..For eg-stoning is not in Quran,but is there is a hadiths.Hanging apostates is not there in Quran,but in hadiths.and so it goes on.As a muslim,TO ME,Quran is the word of Allah and hadiths are narrations that help me to understand life during Prophet’s time-nothing more,nothing less.Allah says that Quran is complete and it is hard for me to accept that Prophet outsmarted Allah and added his own laws to the religion.Prophet’s duty was to deliver Quran to humans,nothing more,nothing less.So,when people tell me that ‘You have to act this way because it is so in hadtihs’,I fliter it out against the message in Quran.For eg,Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion,but these so called scholars tells you to kill people going out of Islam-what a joke..Quran says that the penalty of adultery is equal for both men and women, and involves symbolic lashing. Social pressure, i.e., public witnessing of the penalty, is the basic punishment (24:1-2) but everywhere we hear about stoning,which again is attributed to hadiths.Such is the complex integration of hadiths to Islamic world,and it will make lot of time to clear the mess.I am not against hadiths,but I am against using a petty narration to formulate a law as serious as life and death.

 

Ok,that said,now one can trace the anti-tattoo reference to hadiths .The bottomline is not the alter the creation of Allah as it is and not to hurt the body.But I find this logic weird,because the very same people say that piercing ears,as to use earring is not haram as it is a ‘need’ for women.What the hell,who told you that earrings are a need and everything else is not. Beatification of one’s body is one’s personal choice and if I prefer not to wear earrings but have tattoos, will that be fine,because  your need is not my need?Interstingly, everything they say is stupid,bcoz then haricuts would be haram,since you are altering naturally grown hair.Boxing would be haram because it involves harming the  body .The argument of ‘not changing Allahs’s creation’ is absurd..The verse So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright – the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah’s creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not – 30:30) is talking about not changing Quran which is Allah’s creation.I suggest and request people to read something before jumping into conclusions.do you think that by following some random cleric’s fatwa,you are pleasing God?I am sure God will ask you ‘Why did I give you some brain,I am going to punish you for not valuing my blessing’ .As per Islamic rulings,you haram police deserve to be punished

  • 042.040 The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong.
  • 042.041 But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame.
  • 042.042 The blame is only against those who oppress men and wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a penalty grievous.
  • 042.043  But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs.
  • 042.044 For any whom Allah leaves astray, there is no protector thereafter. And thou wilt see the Wrong-doers, when in sight of the Penalty, Say: “Is there any way (to effect) a return?”

I wonder why the police didn’t arrest these women for harming somebody.

Thirdly,personally,I dislike tattoos.Also,they are unhealthy and pose major mental strain when the love for tattoo disppaers the very next morning your lover becomes ‘ex’.But then again,its your choice and you are free to do as you wish,until and unless it infringes my freedom of choice.

 

Fourthly,what if she had tattooed ‘Allah is crap’ or ‘Muhammad is  a pedophile’..Well then again,I would feel bad but I would never waste my time on these people.If it really bothers me,I would spread awareness of the other side of what the tattoo says,instead of protesting violently on streets.This world is beautiful because of diverse people,and I don’t expect everybody to think like me or accept my version of ‘right’.So I would just move on,until and unless they infringe my freedom of expression.

 

Then again,it is not appropriate for people to do whatever they want..There is no such thing as absolute freedom of expression.Your freedom ends where mine starts.Yes,you can draw cartoons on Prophet’s sexual and blood thristy,you can draw nude pictures of Hindu gods,you can draw hot picture of virgin Mary with big boobies,you can make a painting on Christ inside urine (Piss Christ),you can keep trying to ban Swastika,you can ban anti-holocaust remarks,as you have the freedom to do so.But tell me where should I drown my freedom,for your sake?

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  1. Awesome Nimmy!!!!!

    You explain it so well! You are absolutely amazing.

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    🙂 .Thanks IHM..I was worried if my part of explaining hadiths were confusing..I wish a few members of haram police would read this..Nimmy

  2. I believe in this too!

    If it really bothers me,I would spread awareness of the other side of what the tattoo says,instead of protesting violently on streets.This world is beautiful because of diverse people,and I don’t expect everybody to think like me or accept my version of ‘right’.So I would just move on,until and unless they infringe my freedom of expression.

    And I am so proud to know you and to read your blog. Love, IHM

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    🙂 You make me feel on top of the world..lol…No,i am not so good,just average -Nimmy

  3. This is a very scholarly article Nimmy. You are well read and research well before writing. You also provide enough hyperlinks to substantiate your say.

    I find you bloggers so dedicated in your endeavours. Your heart is in the right place.

    The plight of women/moral policing/”haram police” is really getting the attention and debate it deserves.

    I have many Muslim friends in the hostel (JNU); they are all against the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. I’ll read your ‘Islamic thought’ posts when I have time.

    When you have time you read my this essay on living with differences. It has humour, among other things.

    P.S.: You may disable that snapshot and external links that appear on your posts. Snapshots, in my opinion, is an irritating item on WP; it is slow in fetching a snapshot and surprises the reader with annoying pop up.

    Links appearing here below the post (with the permalink) may send your reader to other blogs (though it may be bringing your traffic from other blogs too; you can see your statistical analysis to know more).

    Nita Writer, daddy of us all, has disabled these two options and of course yours truly too has disabled them too. Just my two cents; don’t mind! If you agree, it is from the Dashboard>Appearance>Extras that you can change the status quo.

    ——————–
    Thanks for your words about the post Vikas..Will surely read your post.

    thanks a ton for your tip..I was hell annoyed with the snapshot,but i didn’t know that it can be removed..Thanks a ton for telling..I have unchecked the option..

    About showing other blogs,nevermind,let it be there..We all are a community we should read good posts,no matter who writes it.Maybe that link is informative than mine and we may benefit from it..Even i get a few(very few) incoming traffic from others blogs..Its a give and take proces..Thanks a lot for pointing,i got rid of a mess 🙂

    Lol @Nita Daddy,sheis indeed Nita grandma(err,not by age,but by experience and wisdom) I love her.. -Nimmy

  4. nice article, awesome story!
    Much food for thought…
    It really made my day.
    Thank you.

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    🙂 Thanks.do come again -nimmy

  5. Nimmy, as usual you have written a well-researched and well thought out post.
    Also good thought at the end that no one’s freedom i+s absolute…

    ————————
    Thanks manju..I was expecting some questions or doubts from you as you are one of my friends who have some idea of Islam..I hope i am clear..Yup,there is NO absolute freedom of expression,but after reading Charakan’s comemnt i am confused..I kinda gree with him and with others,so what is my stand?I don’t know..Will sort it out by discussing more on this thread. ..Keep coming and share your thoughts -Nimmy

  6. Hmm! Thanks for doing the needful.

    ‘daddy of them all’ : I had read this phrase in childhood and liked it and used it without confirming; Couldn’t really find it on Google/Yahoo search! May be someone must have coined a phrase!

    And yes let the links be there! That’s the spirit of a true blogger. As for me I was getting many irrelevant links under my posts, so I removed them!

    Okay, here is another tip in common welfare!

    You do it, Nita does it and some other bloggers too! We comment here and subscribe to the reply by email. So the next comment or reply here goes to our mailbox.

    But you (and sometimes Nita too) actually edit the comments and leave your replies just below the actual comment and then it is NOT notified in the mailbox!

    What you guys are doing is a fine thing leaving your reply just below the comment but a person may be checking his/her mailbox for your replies and he/she will not know about it unless he/she visits this page!

    You are doing an ideal thing in that it does inflate your comment count by including your own comments in the total no. of comments and makes it look more orderly but it is some inconvenience for those who comment!

    What can be done instead is that you reply to 4-5 comments at one time as a new comment or reply once only after 3-4 days when all comments have arrived.

    I was even thinking of suggesting Blogosphere Manager Poonam to make a protocol on these things and suggest everyone in the fraternity to follow it or invite debate on it.

    Feel free to disagree; say what?!

    P.S. : I HOPE POONAM AND NITA READ THIS COMMENT!

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    🙂 Earlier i used to do it like that,but then i was less readable and i thought this way of editting the comemnt is more convinient to me and the reader.Otherwise,i tend to miss answering to some comments..Thanks for your suggestion,will see how it works.. -Nimmy

  7. to the last part…don’t dorwn your self,they will create something out of it 😛

    I second all the above sung praises 🙂

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    🙂 Then what do i do with my load of freedom? I can’t use it since my space has already been occupied by the other group..

    I am happy if you appreciate,but i will be more glad if you offer questions or criticisms..Blogging is not a one man show..We learn by sharing thoughts,so feel free no to sing praises 😉 -Nimmy

  8. First of all, it is a nice article.
    it raises proper issue and it provides proper reasonable argument. I am not so good with grammatical part so i just don’t grope on it.
    I wonder why the police didn’t arrest these women for harming somebody.
    They just cannot, first of all, it is election time, government is guardian of mob, not of the individual.
    Fourthly,what if she had tattooed ‘Allah is crap’ or ‘Muhammad is a pedophile’.
    She might have been killed. What do you think, that Danish cartoonist would have been allowed to live if he was in India or in pakistan for this case?
    Now this is the issue of private property and freedom of expression.
    When that Danish Cartoonist drew contentious cartoons, and muslims whole round the world protested, Danish PM said, he can do nothing. it is freedom of the cartoonist to express. All Indians were shocked, appalled.
    Indians just cannot understand or grasp the idea of limited government, the idea that government is servant not the ruler.
    Indians demand better leaders to lead them, show them the right path, they do not demand leaders to serve them.
    So yes, if it was the case of tattoing a message “Allah is crap, or God is bullshit, or Creationism is Bad Science” etc, it might have raised a mob which either might have killed that person or beaten him/her enough to force her out of the country and never return. We do know why Salman Rushdie cannot live in India, no matters he is Indian.

    Anyways, What about the possibility that Pakistanis are more liberal, libertarian than Indian religionists? be it hinduism supporter or islam supporter, I guess on some lines, pakistanis are more moderate, while on some other lines, Indians are more free and forward. And we should not forget that, in absence of any real political issue to keep pakistan united, Pakistan politicians have already declared pakistan as an Islamic state. Even then, one may find much more moderate muslims on that side of border.

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    I don’t know much about pakistanis in person,but laws in Paksitan are mostly distored and sick ones.Indian muslims have always been mature anough not to sing songs to somebody’s tune..But yes,intolerance is there..But it exists in every other community,doesn’t it?

    From your refernce to Danish cartoons,do i infer that you support them? There is no such thing as absolute freedom of expression and it is shame and not pride on Danish Govt’s part that they were not able to crub the communal issues,that it flared worldwide.

    If Salman Rushdie comes to live in india,as like a minority like Sri ram sena,a minority will protest,but i doubt if majority muslims will even bother about it..

    There is a fine line between use and misuse of freedom of expression -Nimmy

  9. err… typo.. Read does inflate as ‘does not inflate’ : 8th para; 1st line! 😀

    • Solilo
    • February 8th, 2009

    Nimmy, I knew that you would post a well researched and in this case you would also show us the other side of more complex issues. I just swifted through.

    It is a long read so I will come and read and post my comments. Thanks da.

    ——————————–

    🙂 Hey,i should thank you for posting the news,for me to ponder over it.. -Nimmy

  10. Good Post. Why Police did not act? Actually they took legal opinion [as per newspaper report] to know whether the Pakistani girl could be booked for hurting religious sentiments. They wanted to act but not against haram police. Without any legal opinion they could have booked the women for assault. They need not read the Quran for that. Why the Police is like that? They are afraid of their political bosses and the Political parties are afraid of religious fundamentalists.Why the public including the Mall employees did not raise their voice against the assault ? We the public should not stand idle in such situations.
    The moderates in the same religion should also raise their voice. You are doing it Nimmy. Hats off to you.But such voices are rare especially from Muslim Women.

  11. What an amazingly written article?Just a few days back a blogger friend was wonderin as to why no one seemed to be writing on muslim women and Islam…and he was right too…but I now have a reply..:)

    Your post is teaching me too.As ignorant as I am about Islam,I loved knowing about it . I loved reading this.Thank YOU for speaking so boldly and with such courage of conviction.
    Keep going as strong as now and even more..:)

  12. Beautiful… 🙂

    you have written so well and yes, violence is not the answer to any sort of protest or disagreement…
    and thank you for the information as well… 🙂

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    🙂 Thanks for coming Pixie.. -Nimmy

  13. Nimmy, Thanks for this enlightening post.

    There are so many misconceptions about Islam just like it is about Hinduism because of some idiots sitting and making up their own rules in the name of religion to show their ultimate power.

    You have rightly asked about Freedom of speech. How much is too much?

    I am as much against MF Hussain’s painting nude picture of Hindu goddesses as someone drawing a blasphemous picture of Allah. Even in this case may be it was wrong for that girl to get this tattoo but what I object is the way they terrorized her.

    It is only people like you and me who could actually present the positive side of religion because it is impossible for everyone to be agnostic. Religion is here to stay so instead of letting some misguided souls using it against humanity hope more of us can educate them. Your blog is definitely one such. Very informative and balanced!

    You are a rare find woman! This post is added to my favorites so that I educate myself more on Islam.

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    You thoughts are exactly mine dear..but we need to sort it out clearer..

    Regarding information on Islam, I am of the opinion that these days one has hardly time and interest to understadn even one’s own religion,forget somebody else’s..But the point is in being open minded rather than having prejudiced or stereotyped views..I am glad you are very open about it.. there are issues,we need to sort it out rather than blaming and escaping out of it..Thanks for understanding 🙂 -Nimmy

  14. I am against moral brigade being the guardian of any religion. Religion should be able to ignore and rise above all taunts and provocations. Otherwise what is the purpose of religion? Hussain’s painting actually was not derogatory to hinduism.No one raised voice for artistic freedom then. Thats why the sangh parivar goons gained courage and respectability to attack each and everything they do not like in society. Indian artists around 1500yrs had much more freedom as evident from our ancient temples.

  15. @Charakan: Hussain’s paintings are as derogatory to Hinduism as Prophet’s to Islam. It would be derogatory too if someone painted Mother Mary having sex with animals.

    Evrything is not about Hindu goons. I object to this word just like I would to Islamic terrorists or Christian terrorists. There are missionaries everyday converting 3rd world citizens to Christianity too. The excuse for conversion may be valid to some but not all. How many are opposing? I would like to call it a ‘soft approach to terrorism’ by Christians.

    Or is everything done in the pretense of freedom?

    How much freedom is too much?

    I would believe in freedom which doesn’t hurt people. Many might be agnostic as I said but still no one wants to see the gods they pray to having sex with animals. That too depiction of FEMALE gods.

    I object to someone drawing cheap images of Prophet too. Hurting sentiments is not freedom in my opinon. Just like beating up people in the name of culture.

  16. We can’t go back in time. There are many bad things about the past which we have to let go. Hurting anyone’s sentiments is not RIGHT.

    • Solilo
    • February 9th, 2009

    Nimmy,

    In my previous post ‘blasphemous picture of Allah’ It should have been Prophet. Sorry about that.

    As we are on the topic of M F Hussain’s paintings, I would like to see some similar pictures of Mother Mary or any of the revered people from other religion and Bishops and other religious heads passing it off as ‘Freedom of speech’.

    The whole world objected to Danish portraits of Prophet. Didn’t they? Were they all goons? Was it not freedom of expression?

    Not taking anymore of your comment space…I think I need to write a post on this pseudo-secularism I see these days esp. across the blog. After all my blog is to put my perspective 😉

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    🙂 I will be glad to read your post.. but i ahve no issues with comments piling up here. ..Good day 🙂 -Nimmy

  17. Solilo do you think then that all writers and painters should get prior approval from there self styled saviours of religion? Are there religions so weak and frail that a work of art will destroy it? Also what you meant by pseudo secularism in this context?

    • hey charakan,
      if the artist is living in a country where females don’t walk on the streets naked, then he better take permission before painting nude paintings of females who are worshipped by millions….

      The same artist makes fully clothed paintings of ayesha and the other wive’s of prophet?

      Come on, don’t act holier than thou.

    • Charakan
    • February 9th, 2009

    Sry there should be read as these in the above comment Solilo did i mention hindu goons or islamic terrorists in my comment?

  18. @Charakan..you have asked two questions in general.
    1)Do you think then that all writers and painters should get prior approval from there self styled saviours of religion?
    2)Are there religions so weak and frail that a work of art will destroy it?

    My answer to the first question would be an unequivocal no…Of course not.
    A creative person has full right to create what he/she likes as they please.
    Creativity should not be bound up in rigid rules right?I am sure you agree with me here..

    But..And this is a big BUT…Your creativity or freedom to create ends where mine begins…
    If I am offended by what you have created or said or done,I have full right to let you know,to make you aware of my displeasure….

    I am an atheist in a lot of ways….But I fail to see the need why CREATING ONLY A PARTICULAR piece of art pertaining to a RELIGION would satodfy my creaticity and nothing less…
    WHY?AS an artist is my creativity that limited?Can I only attract attention by drawing that which might incite riots(whether right or wrong)by doing exactly that which I know will result in a loss of life?

    I am not god or moral police.
    My duty as an artist is to create,…yes…But my FIRST duty is towards ensuring that lives are not lost,that tensions do not arise BECASUE fo what I create..

    I cannot escape the deaths that have happened bacause of me the blood that is on my hands merely by saying that This is artistic freedom….
    Yes,humans are funny,weird and plain stupid and ideally they shouldnt havce to depend on a god or on what someone somehwere says or draws about their go..
    But then this is not an ideal world..
    Think of these people as little kids who need to be handled with the utmost care and sensitivity…

    Yes,Charakan you are absolutely right when you say religion should be able to rise above all these petty things..

    In a utopian world that might well be possible…

    However ,in this world ,religion provides a solace to those who need it the most,it is an opium if you will…a drug that the masses take…even I do to some extent…

    And in this Dystopian world,
    Freedom is only judged and allowed to the extent that it does not take yet another life…
    The moment it takes another life ,no matter what the cause..
    Then the very same creative ARTIST BECOMES A MURDERER.
    and no amount of saying that this was done in the name of artistic freedom is going to convince me otherwise…

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    You jot down exactly my thoughts,but as we discussed later,there is some clash between the arguments..-Nimmy

  19. Nimmy!No more hogging your space…I loved your article..:)
    ((hugss))I give them a lot and you do too!:)

    • Charakan
    • February 9th, 2009

    Indyeah, sadly your argument is the typical victim blaming argument of fundamentalists. Then you should not attack rama sena. Their sentiments where hurt seeing hindu girls in skin showing costumes drinking and dancing in bars. i am little busy now. Will come again with a detail point to point rebuttal later if nimmy allows

  20. Hmm it was nice reading a well reasearched post and that too from the Islamic point of view.

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    🙂 Thanks Reema..It was a long read,but i hope you got tiny bits of this and that.. -Nimmy

    • Chirag
    • February 9th, 2009

    Nimmy we have a lot of police hmm…. Koi apne kaam se matlab nahi rakta 😦

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    lol..these guys ahve job or business of their own to bother about,so they are busy and content minding others business -Nimmy

  21. Nimmy as much as we all are hogging your space..:)
    I was thinking lets have a discusssion…:)will try and post something on this in a few days…
    Charakan would love to know what you think..:)for,that is what we are here for isn’t it?:)
    do reply here if you would like to…also will be sharing my thoughts on the matter in a few days..:)

    Hugss Nimmy!:)

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    Sure dear,we learn more by discussing..I am glad i found you 🙂 -Nimmy

  22. hey Nimmy,

    You have explained the concepts well….
    but all I would like to say is that, it is not a question of religion or language, it is question of “Morals”…..

    if you look at the situ that way, then everything is wrong….

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    Hi Ajit,welcome to my blog 🙂 I am not very sure if i put it well..I just put them so that muslims who read this will not come up with the argument that tattoos are forbidden..

    I am yet to define the line of control between absolute and relative freedom of expression..Once done,maybe i can understand your viewpoint..Do come again 🙂 -Nimmy

  23. Wonderfully said by you Nimmy 🙂 with all the references. kudos to you

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    🙂 Thanks Kanagu,i hope you understood atleast half of it..This stuff is really confusing and understanding it is a tedious task..I adore your posts for they are well researched and put as like a report..Indeed worth appreciating -Nimmy

  24. Indyeah,you contradicted yourself in your comment.

    “A creative person has full right to create what he/she likes as they please.
    Creativity should not be bound up in rigid rules”.

    Good I agree fully.Then you say

    “But I fail to see the need why CREATING ONLY A PARTICULAR piece of art pertaining to a RELIGION would satisfy my creaticity and nothing less
    WHY?AS an artist is my creativity that limited?Can I only attract attention by drawing that which might incite riots(whether right or wrong)by doing exactly that which I know will result in a loss of life?”

    Now you are putting limitations on artist’s creativity and you nullify your first statement..That is hypocrisy..Either you say boldly artist’s have only limited freedom or you say they have full freedom.

    Now about riots.Your opinion is artists should only produce those artistic work which will not result in riots.
    Who creates the riots?
    The self styled protectors of religion,meaning the fundamentalists.
    So that means the artist should get the fundamentalists approval because it is them that decides whether a work of art is hurting their religion or not and there by whether there shold be a riot or not.
    With that you again contradicted your statement that artists do not need prior approval from fundamentalists.
    Actually moral and cultural policing is not about religion.It is about gaining power by hijacking one’s religion.
    The typical slogan of fundamentalists is ‘Our Religion is in distress and we are the only ppl having the strength and ability to save our religion” For getting ppl believe this slogan they need targets for attack.Also this should be soft targets so that their hands will not be burned[because all bullies are cowards].So they create a ‘hurt our religion’ hysteria using anything they get,do some buring and rioting,increase their popular support among naive followers and there by try to get political power,their ultimate aim.
    Sorry Nimmy that I took so much space but I am sure you wont mind.

  25. charakan please read my post it says what I believe in..:)and as for the artist ,well freedom with responsibility…?

    • Nimmy
    • February 9th, 2009

    Hello all,i am so sorry that i didn’t keep in touch..I got caught with some stuff and coudln’t be online for long-the longest time gap ever since i started blogging 🙂

    Will reply to all in deatil tomorrow.Please don’t talk about comsuing my comment space..I ahve comment space bcoz i want to ehar from you..The more ,the better..

    Just a quick note,my current opinion is that of Solilo and Indyeha,but Charakan has a biiiiiig point..We are in fact contradicting oursleves..We want ourslevs to be free to do anythign as we wish to,but we don’t want others to do the same,isn’t that double minded hypocrasy **scratches head*** I am against Danish cartoons and Hussain and other stuff,but then again,as Charakan said,should others remain quiet for our sake-so that we remain confortable in our version of right???Is our faith or conviction too weak as to get eroded away just in the name of somebody’s opinion or expression

    Indyeah,the problem with your last comment on “freedom with responsibility” is that people will have the freedom of taking law in hands,so that they correct who are wrong,in their eyes..Just as SRS did or just as MSM mals tried to trash Taslima..They belive they are true,we believe we are right,so in the end,who is right???????????

    bye for now.Sorry

    This is crazy and confusing..Will talk more tomorrow..Thanks again for your thoughts,i am indeed honoured and i am learning from you all..

  26. I said rigid rules….:)
    no rigid rules but rules nonetheless…kind of like self rules based on one’s own judgement should be in place..
    this is not an ideal society nor is this anywhere close to being one….
    all your arguments are based as if we are living in an ideal society…as if we have been able to stop the riots and murders form happening..

    Tell me something Charakan when you speak of fundamentalists and how they incite people do you assume that the common man is a brainless fool?
    Can the coommon man not see whats offensive and whats not?
    The masses do take offense at particular things…and one should be sensitive enough to keep that in mind….
    I quite agree that fundamentalisst quite hijack any topic and use it for their own political ends..

    However you seem to be putting all such incidents under one group while I view them separately….
    the University controversy where paintings of students were burnt and torn was an act of hooliganism…

    the prophet cartoon was an act of deliberate incitement…

    tell me something…if we know that religious fundamentalists use such works as fuel for their fire…why do we give them more fuel?

    Ah!but you will say that ignore them,be liberal they will not be able to find an issue…
    But Charakan we live in India a country that is precariously positiones in terms of religion at any time…what of the masses?
    how will you get them to understand?

    Or will you keep waiting till after years of bloodshed they understand on thier own?

    why just India? look at the havoc a simple cartoon has created in Europe!

    what you fail to understand is that such fundamentalists of all religions lie in wait for such works to appear…
    and liberals like you are adding more fuel by simply declaring that all of it is okay ..that there are absolutely no boundaries,,all in the name of freedom…

  27. Well researched post Nimmy ! Boy oh boy, you all take blogging so seriously. and Im really glad on that note. Njaanum undallo !!!!

    —————————-

    🙂 lol..So true,Blogging is long way from being a time pass..Lot of time and effort is spent..but it is indeed fruitful as one gets to talk to people and share and learn from them 🙂 Of course you are part of my circle.. -Nimmy

  28. Indyeah, Now you boldly say that there should be only limited freedom for artists. Atleast that is clear. Now who decides the limit?
    Should the fundamentalists decide it? or should the artist decide it? You said
    “kind of like self rules based on one’s own judgement should be in place.” Great I fully agree with it.
    I believe almost all artists do it.Now abt Hussain and Salman Rushdie. Do you believe they deliberately wanted to deride the religions concerned?
    Have you seen Hussain’s controversial paintings?.Try to see it as another interpretation Indian culture,not the sangh parivar interpretation.The paintings are good. It do not show as much nudity as seen in some of our ancient temple sculptures. Rushdie’s work also is a work of art with nothing really harming Islam.
    The cartoon was a deliberate attempt to incite,not a work of art.Still why you should be incited?Do you think your religion will be destroyed becasue of that?Then you dont know religion.
    Cultural policing of artists and moral policing of women are either sides of the same coin. Nobody was naked in Mangalore.The girls involved were under their own rules of modesty.But that rrule which is self imposed did not satisfy the fundamentalists,Being a woman you were angry because of loss of liberty.Same is true for artists.
    In last 30 years India has gone a long way backward in terms of cultural and artistic freedom. In my home state of Kerala there is massive and sensuous sculpture of a naked woman placed in a public garden[Malampuzha] That was in 1950s and nobody made a big fuss about it.But today I know such a thing will not be allowed to happen by our moral brigade. Similarly in the National award winning Malayalam film Nirmalayam [1970s]there is a scene in which a frustrated priest is seen spitting on the temple idol,one of the most poignant scene of the film. Will anybody dare enough to show such a scene again?
    I am saddened by the support for such power hungry pseudo religious fundamentalists from even unexpected liberal quarters.

  29. Charakan my entire opposition to your point of view is simply this….because I think we do agree with the basic points here…
    How liberal can we be?
    Where does one put a boundary?a limit?
    And the painting…I see it as you do…:)but arent you assuming a lot by saying there is nothing offensive about it?
    What about others?Could they not feel offended by it?
    Religion is a rather touchy issue ,one I stay miles away from,but I fail to understand this new liberalism which cares two hoots for what people feel and
    says everything goes in the nameof creative expression…

  30. I am an atheist Charakan…I wouldnt know religion if it stood infront of me..however I hate this pseudo secularism,one which says yes to evry thing….
    what about others?those who are religious?do their feelings not count?
    and do you really think the masses would have just ignored the cartoon?is it as simple as that?
    then why are we not living in a perfect world?

    ——————————–

    Dear,it is not only about religion..In the case of pub attack,we defend our stand by saying that we have the right to drink or dance,because it is our personal life and we have the freedom to do what we want..Ok,now people like SRM have issues with this freedom of ours,because they think that when outsiders (manglore is an educational city,where people from all over india come to do various courses) indulge in such activities,their own girls too might be tempted to do the same..Ok,now let us see why they have an issue.People going to pub are youths,and women-empowerment around us is still in a half-baked state..You or me as a person as come out of the shell,but people around us haven’t.When we have the courage to go to a pub (i say courage bcoz conservatives fear about it) ,should we have the courage to deal with the security and other issues,or should we ask for security so that we may excercise our freedom? Now drunk people have hardly any control over one’s mind and body,am i wrong? Ok,now in this situation,incidents like rape or date-rape may happen.It may be that conservatives are talking against this point. So,they are trying to stop it in the intial stage-going to pub.Also,drunk males may pose threat to girls on the road too.So,they are trying to crub the comsumption of alchohol

    Does this argument justify their act of driving away people from the pub? Sorry if i messed up my words,but my point is,everybody has their version fo limits of freedom.Who sets these limits? Can’t they protest against their girl’s security concerns? Here,they can say that the people like Renuka Chowdary are infringing their ‘Right against exploitation’.Don’t they have to right to protest so that their own girls don’t get to the end point of getting into some exploitation?

    [ Pub attack was not about alchohol or ‘nude clothes’.lol.,but about hindu girls getting ‘flicked’ by muslims boys. What if their fear is true?Can’t they protest? ] ..I don’t know,i cannot distingusih the fine line differentiating absolute and relative freedom ,do share your thoughts..-Nimmy

  31. Great post Nimmy! A message sent on the right verticals. People fail to understand that all religious interpretations were written by normal mortals. The obvious renditions may be according to their thought processes during those times. Their life situations were barbaric during those times. We have become cultured now. I seriously believe that scholars should rewrite the holy books every 100 years. We are merely living on some old living conditions and forging new theories reading the holy scriptures. God came into this world not to distrupt lives but to unite people.

    Regarding the mall incident, I believe that there may be more to it than the tattoo. An average mordern mall going person may not be so religiously sentimental to bash up a girl in the pertext of either revealing her back too much or in sporting a tattoo. If she can get away with this in Pakistan which is a more conservative Muslim country then why in India? I’d read this in the “Indian Express” and immediately shunned it by noting in my mind that this could be something to do with some rivalry or her attitude which didn’t go well with some ladies.

    Keep Blogging!

    ————————————-

    I agree with you..As far as Islam is concerned,hadiths and Sharia needs to be reformed accodring to today’s age.Persoanlly,i feel that there are many many concepts in Quran that can be emulated for a better living..Even you maybe doing it,but of course not in the name of Allah,but the end result is the same..Ultimately,religion is for peace and refinement of the person,but today,it is the opposite,because instead of reading directly form Quran,people are running back of beard fellows and swallowing their vomit as it is.No questions asked and no questions will be answered by these people..

    Regarding mall,yes,maybe there is something more,but we never know..We are fed by half-baked news by media.I hope they realize the gravity of their doings,as newspapers reach out to common people and they swallo what is given in the paper..How many of us have the time to read many newspapers and cross check the authenticity?

    KEep coming ..Good day-Nimmy

  32. Anyone may correct me if I am wrong- but it is my understanding that the sculptures of Khajuraho, and other ones, too- depict everyday facets of the life of that time. There are sculptures of people working, studying, and engaging in sexual activities.

    This shows that people of the time had a healthy view of life in general and gave sex its requisite place in their lives.

    On the other hand the art of M F Husain or Salman Rushdie want to use shock treatment to publicise ther art/ writings. Maybe they were not confident about their artistic talents and used this way to get publicity?

    ——————————-

    @Manju,i just looked what sculptures of Khajuraho is..lol..intersting ;-)..As Charakan said,maybe we all are moving forward in scientifical and technical aspects,but moving backward in terms of tolerance and wide horizons of thoughts.Such a painting or sculpture WILL NOT HAPPEN TODAY,any doubt? Even the news of artist intending to build such a piece of art will attract all moral brigades and they WILL NOT let it happen.We,the liberal majority,can do NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING.

    Hussain’s painting is offensive to me,not because it shows woman mating with tiger,but because,a Devi mates with tiger..There is a trillion km difference between both.He being a human being ,and more of an artist,should have known that such a drawing will cause trouble,by hurting people’s sentiments. Honestly,i think that he did for publicity. ]

    For Salman Rushdie,the author was talking about Prophet revoking some verses from Quran,saying that it was revealed by devil.I haven’t read the book,but i understand taht it is based on magical-relaism ,some dreams happening and all..I don’t know why should it be an issue,but maybe SOME muslims have issue with it,bcoz they have inferiority complex that their faith can get shattered by anybody walking down the lane. Afterall,it is just a book and there are more REAL issues to be taken care of ,before issuing fatwa to kill somebody..Again,maybe he too did it for publicity,just another marketing technique..

    The sad part is that,no matter how many times these types of events happen,the common people doesn’t realize that they are being made donkeys,for somebody else’s agenda..Infact,i have always wondered why people vote for dumb leaders..Maybe,as in case here,they are really donkeys who never understand..

  33. Good morning. Let me continue here as I had not got time yet to read Indyeah’s post. Will read it soon. Let us start with this. What did you mean when you and Solilo used the term pseudo secularism especially in the context of this debate?

    • Nimmy
    • February 10th, 2009

    Hi all,good morning..hmm,good evening or good night to those in US…

    This is really interesting ,yet confusing..

    @Charakan,just a quick not,by psuedo secularism,i guess Solilo was refering to your inference that Danish cartoons are worth enough to be questioned and protested,whereas Hussain’s cartoons aren’t.I am not sure,but thatz how i got it..

  34. Still I want the explanation from Solilo and Indyeah what they meant. Then I can continue.We should be clear about the terminologies

    —————
    True,will wait for them..Misinterpretation will cause more harm..Thanks for coming 🙂 -Nimmy

  35. Fourthly,what if she had tattooed ‘Allah is crap’

    Then it might not have been a big deal.

    I have many TShirts shouting the Nietzschean slogan “God Is Dead”.

    Issue was not of tattooing something about Allah or god.

    Issue was Tattooing some words directly from Quran, and that is prohibited by Quran.

    The statement she sported on her back wAs directly taken from Holy Quran, that according to islam is ill and prohibited.

    And according to Indian government and police, physical assualt and terrorizing a girl is not a crime but if someone says or do anything against Quran or Geeta, it is extreme crime. That is why Indian police instead of arresting the group of women who assaulted her, forced the girl Saba herself to apologize in written document, and instead of providing Saba proper protection claimed that now she has apologized, no police case will be fired against her. Police actually victimized the victim.

    ——————————-


    Your comments are thoughtful..thanks..But i can’t reply now as my brain is saturead on the verge of explosion with all freedom stuffed in it..Sorry,keep coming

    Regarding the islamic part you said,you are wrong.It is not prohibitted in Quran,there is nothign islamic about the whole incident and thatz why i gave islamic proof -Nimmy

  36. oh no…njaanum undallo was not in the context in which u replied….”njaanum undallo onnum cheyyaaandey !!” aa context il..lol

    ————————-

    lol ok ok 🙂 -Nimmy

  37. What exactly should I clarify Charakan?

  38. we will discuss in nimmy’s latest post where you have accused me as a hypocrite ok? see you there but please read everything i said here before training the gun on me

  39. What an irony!!! When required, Police kuch karti nahi hai and the people who are supposed to mind their own business are acting like animals.

  40. I am so sorry to see you leaning towards Qur’an-only thinking.

    Grip tightly to Islam inshallah.

    M`a salam.

    • R.Sajan
    • February 22nd, 2009

    The media recently reported on the revelations of Sr. Jesme of Kerala about her abused life as a nun in Kerala, in her ‘Amen- An Autobiography of a Nun’. Kerala also has the recent stories of Sr. Abhaya, murdered in a nunnery by two priests and a nun, and of Sr. Anupa Mary who hanged herself because she was unable to resist lesbian exploitation by the Sister Superior. These cases are perhaps, more serious than pub brawls. These victims did not drink in public with Moslem boys. They had only become nuns to lead pure lives.
    I request our women to rise against these incidents also. Nisha Susan, herself a Catholic, should again lead in sending Chaddis to the Pope and Kerala Bishops.

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