Why/why not should women dress modestly/provocatively?

Miss A : Hey hey,read what IHM has written about so called provocative dressing

Miss B: Yeah,I read it,she is talking about an idealistic society,where everybody is mature and is aware of one own responsibility.Idealism is good,but reality and practicality is different.

Miss A :Can you expand?

Miss B: Yup..See,she is right when she says that ‘She does not invite it’..But in a multicultural and multifaceted society,how can you expect everybody to belive in your version of right?

Miss A :I agree,everybody is free to have their own opinion and that is what my point is about.Women are individuals and they should be free to choose what they wear and how they carry themselves.

Miss B: Any woman should be able to wear what she wants anywhere, and for that matter, so should men, but if we go by that ideology, then nudism should be perfectly acceptable in all spheres of society too. We should all be able to keep our doors unlocked when we leave home and also to keep our valuables on the table unattended while we nip to the toilet in a busy cafe too.However, human nature is unpredictable and thus we must always be on our guard. “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”

Miss A : I agree,women who dare to break the so called norms should be prepared to face the consequencies of the effect that the dressing will bring-for instance eve teasing (yeah,I know I got into ‘blame the victim’ theory) But I still stand by what I said,women are free to wear what they like . If you don’t like it,don’t look at it.

Miss B: You messed it,In fact men like to look at such women who reveal their assets,who make private things public.

Miss A : Women don’t dress to please men,they dress to please themselves.

Miss B: Ha ha,if that was they case,why don’t they wear such revealing dress inside their house and in front of family alone ? When she wears it to public,the message is simple-that she feels good being looked at,maybe by men or maybe by women. Isn’t this ‘feel good’ thing called attention seeker?

Miss A : Oh well,some women like attention,but that doesn’t mean you can go and touch her.. Revealing dress is not a invitation for rape or abuse..

Miss B: Tell me are you offended if somebody pass comment on you while you walk down the street..

Miss A : Hell yes,I hate it.

Miss B: So tell me why do you dress in a way that will attract comments.?

Miss A :Passing comments is his problem,not mine.

Miss B: Agreed,but why do you get offended at somebody else’s comment if you feel you are right?

Miss A : ***Silence..***

Miss B: Tell me why you women want to portray yourself as sexual objects while you go on 40 km essays on asking men to stop viewing women as sexual objects?When you yourself feel and is proud of being a sexual object,why do you complain about others looking at you through such glasses..?

Miss A : See,I don’t like others looking at me as a sexual object,so I dress modestly..But modestly is subjective.What is modest to me needn’t be to another person and what is immodest to me,maybe modest to the next person.So we can’t generalize.If somebody likes to dress in a particular way,she should be free to do so.

Miss B: Tell me something,when women know that there are some sick devilish men out there in the society,should she opt to take care herself by dressing modestly,or should she go around enrolling all eve teasers to mental asylum..Tell me which of the two choices is practical?

Miss A :Taking preventive measures is practical and feasible.But well,your logic is stupid bcoz in that case,wonder how men rape 18 month old babies and 89 years old grannies? Is diapers and sluggish clothes provocative?and you think women are free from all such harassments in places like Saudi and Afghan??**rolls eyes**

Miss B: You get my point..rape is about control and not about sex.When a baby or a granny is raped,it is all about overpowering and controlling rather than sexuality. So,no matter how you dress,you are prone to such dangers..But what is wrong in taking care?

Miss A :You are asking me to shut down myself in my room so that perverts may roam around freely in the streets uh? To accept that dressing is a moral issue is to accept this: a woman must not tempt a man. We focus on Adam eating the apple because Eve gave it to him. We don’t focus on Adam’s responsibility, on why he did not say no.

Miss B: No,thatz not my point. We are a society and we have norms and cultural barriers .Your freedom ends where mine starts.Men are like that they will keep drooling over public display or private parts..

Miss A : Shame on men who are proud to declare that they are so weak enough not to control their libidos..And Oh,please don’t talk about culture.. Rape and incest and sexual abuse of children are not our culture, even though they happen all the time.I am sick of men and women who, while holding their imported cellphones and driving their imported cars, say that women should conform to certain gender roles so as to preserve our “real” culture.

Miss B: Yes,I am aware of the double faceted hypocrisy. I agree that society should provide a safe environment for all its citizens and not punish women for the few criminal men who can nor control their urges. But then again, how can government take care of each and every single citizen in the country?We have our share of responsibility..The bottom line is that in public some modesty is required to avoid problems.

Miss A : Any man who takes offence at women’s clothing should reassess his ideas. Have your opinion, but leave it at that. Perhaps if these men cannot control themselves then they should not be allowed out on the street. Moreover,it is his responsibility to act as a reasonable and decent human being. Rather than impose dress codes for women, I’d propose blindfolds for hypersensitive men.

Miss B: I completely agree with you that women are not responsible for crimes committed on them and I agree with the ‘She did not ask for it’ theory.But in our real life.theories have less importance than practicals..I agree that as far as the dress code is concerned, the problem is the uneducated and ignorant observers not the dresser. Having said that, a person cannot but be mindful since there are just too many uneducated and ignorant people out there.So,it your choice whether you choose to be daring and outgo these vultures..But trust me,it is better to take care..“The stronger sex is actually the weaker sex because of it’s weakness for the weaker sex.”

Miss A : I am going for a tea break…phew…..

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  1. Dressing immodestly in public is sexual harassment pure and simple…

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    🙂 Welcome to my blog..

    If dressing immodestly is sexual harassment,don’t forget that it is two way..Or is it that men’s provacative dresses aren’t sexual harassment for women? -Nimmy

  2. Years ago during an eye exam the female dr. who sat directly in front of me during the exam was wearing a low cut blouse and the way she sat gave me a clear view inside her blouse…This made me very uncomfortable because I knew that if I said anything it would have been me who would have been charged with sexual harassment due to the double standards promoted by feminists like Miss A…Since then as much as possible I make certain to have my wife tag along whenever I have an appointment with an immodest female professional…]

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    🙂 lol..I wonder why don’t you change your doctor if you don’t like her dress..If it is that she is a good doctor,I suggest you not to bother about her dress-just go there,get your service done,come back..If the doctor herself don’;t hvae a problem with wearing such a dress,i wonder why should we bother 🙂

    Also,I wonder what does taking your wife along have to do with this? That you can vent off it then and there??-Nimmy

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 1st, 2009

      What crap! If you cannot keep your eyes from roving you call its a problem with the woman ?

      I mean as if your wife being there stops you from looking!

      Really!

      How is it that men can roam about in chaddis and all and no one cares.. why females have no sexual needs and are unaffected? We never complain.. why shud you ?

      • Doesn’t this show that fear of punishment makes all kind of men behave best? In a world full of people of all kinds making everybody responsible for their own behaviour seems to be the most practical thing to do. -IHM

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        I agree with you ..Today ,men can easily get away from these crimes and hence the high rate of abuse. IHM,today a woman like me is afraid of dressing the way i like,bcoz i fear that nobody will stand by my side,so I limit my choices bcoz ultimately ,my life is precious to me.On the other hand,if the law had been strict ,I could have went to police station and say that ‘This guy harassed me and caused mental agony by making vulgar comments while i was in bus or walking on street’..As of today,I expect only laughter and condemn from the police men,instead of strict action..Also,expect them telling you ‘Dress properly lady’ ..So,in that case,tell me what should I do? In fact,as you said,rather than trying to change people,we should put pressure to have a strict law and order system,where things are put in an orderly manner.To me,that alone seems the way out.-Nimmy

    • Milind Kher
    • February 28th, 2009

    The Holy Prophet (SAWA) has said, “The first look is yours. The second is that of the devil.”

    So, if somebody incidentally saw a low cut blouse, no issue. If they continue to stare, then it could create problems.

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    Yeah I agree..So better men stop staring and create problem for themselves and others 🙂 -Nimmy

  3. Very nicely written, to put forth both sides(arguments) of the coin

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    🙂 Thanks ..And what do you think is the end result of this discussion,what is the solution? -Nimmy

  4. The Bible makes it quite clear that to just look at a woman with lust is the same as the sin of adultery so if a woman dresses immodestly knowing full well that men will look at her then not only has she led her brother into temptation but she is also guilty of the sin of adultery…

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    I quote from the post ..”We focus on Adam eating the apple because Eve gave it to him. We don’t focus on Adam’s responsibility, on why he did not say no.”..Pity Adam for being so weak..I wonder why men take pride in being so weak in controlling their sexuality.In fact,I find it an irony that it is mostly religious men-jews ,christians and muslim men who take pride in being so weak..

    On a different note,to my understanding,Islam don’t have the concept of original sin and that Even and Adam is equally responsible for eating the apple -Nimmy

    • So, it is all the woman’s fault…Why can’t the man keep his thing to himself?Why he look away?You are just reiterating the point that men are animals, they aren’t sophisticated enough to control their urges…

    • P.S. Who wrote the Bible?Men did…These passages just justify inappropriate behaviour and blame everything on women…

    • Looking at someone with lust, versus, Looking at someone without lust.
      The Bible, like the commenters here, condemn the former, not the latter.
      Some men continue to violate the Biblical injunction, by doing the former. Are they unable to accomplish the latter? Or are they able to, yet simply prefer to continue breaking god’s law?

        • said
        • December 14th, 2009

        I so much love sexy girls specially if she so young and can follow up the instruction and joining live

  5. Both sides of the argument have been well put…
    But, I agree with IHM – how a woman/lady/girl dresses, is her wish alone and no one can judge her or force her to wear or not wear what she likes…
    A man should have enough culture and good upbringing to know that no woman would warrant an attack on herself and the whole line – “she asked for it because she was dressed in a certain way”, is nothing but a load of crap. (excuse me for the strong language here)

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    Hey Pixie,do use strong language whereever necessary bcoz then alone the gravity of the message will be conveyed..

    I strongly believe and will do to my last breath that women ahve the freedom to wear what she want.But let me ask you something?Are men around us that good enough to perceive this? Hell no.Most of them are MCPs who have no spine or shame to vent off their sexuality at random women-either by words or by actions.In that case,I prefer not to take chance .As Miss B said,no matter which dress you wear,some men are going to feel aroused ,but I feel that it is good to go unnoticed among the crowd by being one among them and not wearing anything outstanding..i.s,when is Saudi,I prefer wearing a parda,when in India,i prefer wearing a salwar,when in US,i prefer wearing a jeans and top.There is no rigid rule,but i prefer to do diluted or unnoticed among the mass.Just my two cents -Nimmy

  6. Arent we all familiar with this “practical” conversation! You are Ms A if such a conversation really did happen – is my guess 🙂

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    Criso,yeah,we hear this every now and then..Well,I am both Miss A and Miss B..I can’t amke up my mind..This post is an inner conversation going on in my mind..I want to hear others minds so that I can stick on to one view rather than putting legs in two boats..How was your exams? -Nimmy

  7. Interesting post . And style Nimmy . Bravo . And yes , modesty’s definition would change from person to person , I guess .

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    🙂 ..I would like to hear what your conclusion is,about the discussion between Miss A and Miss B -Nimmy

  8. Just as in the animal kingdom nature has programed human males to respond by becoming sexually aroused when presented with visual cues by a female when she is ready to mate… That indeed is the message that women send to men at large by dressing immodestly…Women are indeed aware of this and like to play with fire by sending false signals which is out and out sexual harassment and such a woman richly deserves the consequences that her own immoral actions bring down upon her head…

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    ha ha ha,so you are telling that a women in low cut blouse is worth being raped..lol… Ok,tell me can Miss A or Miss B rape you just in case you walk around in provocative dress? -Nimmy

    • So, you are saying men are animals, they have no control…I always knew that…

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      Hi Bones,I am glad you visited..Welcome 🙂

      And yes,men are always proud of being weak and unable to differenciate themselves from the animal instinct..lol.. -Nimmy

      • so, Dabir, you’ve told us that you regularly commit the sin of lust, and now you tell us that you are no better than an animal. You need to improve yourself quite a lot.

        Start by learning how to deal with this ‘harrassment’. Any woman can explain how.

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        🙂 -Nimmy

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 1st, 2009

      Oh well if that is the case.. there would be no rapes no?

      If men waited for females to be ready there never would be any issues at all!

  9. Nimmy, there are no “two sides” only one. A person has the right to dress as he/she pleases. As for he wonderfully erudite MCP who is commenting on how women incite men, maybe a good idea would be for him to start wearing a blindfold- much cheaper and saves everyone else the trouble and cost of dressing up.

    For the uninitiated MCP= Male Chauvenist Pig.

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    Alankrita,I have no doubt that there is only one RIGHT,that women are free to choose how they dress and live their life.But the point here is not about right of expression,but about choosing wisely,keeping in mind,the factors around us..Yes,as I said,blindfolds are the best,but are they going to wear it? All these have been socially conditioned into their blood and it will take centuries before they change or evolve into better humans rather than jumping at women driven by their animal instinct. Till then,I prefer to stay out of such morons’s eyes..-Nimmy

    • Nimmy, what guarantee is there that if you cover up, you won’t be raped/molested? A woman should wear what she wants to…

    • Winnie the poohi
    • March 1st, 2009

    Ah I came here from IHM’s blog

    I have a question to ask you Miss B. If a woman is hidden behind a ‘burqa’ is she immune to sexual abuse and innuendos?

    In that case in Islamic countries there should be no rapes no?

    Also, I remember one incident when we were just 14. We were wearing school uniforms which was in no was indecent. It was salwar kameez. And yet when we walked on the road .. We were teased. Besides, at one point of time .. Someone on the rickshaw going on fast pace hit a girl on her chest. She was wearing a “duppatta” he dint care if she was hurt badly.. or was humiliated. for him she was nothing but a piece of female flesh..

    Do tell me.. how can one avoid that ?

    Frankly its not what you wear at all.. its about what you see and how you do it…

    If being provocative was about wearing revealing dresses.. any topless beaches would be devoid of women no ?

    Why is it that females have no issues being topless there?

    We cannot give society’s mindset as an excuse. We just have to and have to change it. And we cannot change it unless we change ourselves.

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    Hi Winne 🙂 welcome to my blog..You have a nice name,I love Winne 🙂

    Please see the post and note that Miss B is in agreement to your arguments..She says that dress is not the reason for abuse we women receive.Also,in such contries who say that they are epitome of modesty,they too have all this rape and violence. when every body part is covered,they will find something else to get provocated-i ahve heard many saying that women in burkhas look very beautiful bcoz their eyes are sexy..lol,so eyes also are to be covered.When everything is covered,they say the perfume is sexy and provocative,..In the end,they just need excuses. And as you said,in topless beaches,people may hardly notice each other..Forget topless beaches,many many tribal womens till walk around topless and I never heard that it is bcoz of this reason that they got harassed,unless a so called civilized man from the town visits them and get provocated**rolls eyes***

    Miss B’s point is simple-do you dare to be different and do you have it in you to face the challenge the existing rotten system. If you dare,you ought to be equippied with mental and physical courage to deal with it,else don’t go for it,as most men around are ‘weak’..Either you wait for them to be strong,or you make a statement of change,but make sure you don’t fail.. Miss B didn’t say that you should walk around in burkha,she was talking about modest clothes.. -Nimmy

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 1st, 2009

      Ah forgive my impassioned speech.. I hate and hate when women have to conform to stds that r not applicable to men.

      Why is that men cant control their urges when a woman who is supposed to have nine times the appetite of a man * acc to some hindu text i forgot which* can and is supposed to repress it all her life!

      I believe We have to make a change. I mean, and you also agree its not about clothes. It is about the person and his mindset.

      Forget about burqa for a moment. The incident i related about a man hitting a girls breast.. when she was modest with dupatta clad salwar kameez and also a child *just 14* .. this is not an isolated incident. this happens a lot.. We tend to let go of this.. My point is why ?

      Why is it that women have to measure every step she takes? It is not right and in no way fair!

      If a man can be nude and so can be a woman! And no one has any right to oppose that! And we dont accept this.. we women and exercise it.. We can never see any changes!

      I mean if the first pioneer women didnt fight for rights.. we wud never have seen any changes that has already happened no ?

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      Thatz so true,if first pioneers of freedom didn’t forgo their happiness for future generation,we would still have been in a state of ,well,how can we even describe that!!

      I am with you when you say that we need a change,a radical chnage..but my point is not about change Winne,but on how to move forward with it..See,now we have women here and there who are to be different.They are marginalized bcoz they don’t have the power of how it would have been if done collectively..Just for instance,the PCC was a hit bcoz it involved men and women from many aprts of the country rather than restricting it to jsut the Manglore city.But even then,we had lot fo women against it,but thatz natural-people are resistant to change. All I am trying to say is that,when we fight the ssytem,di ti collectively,so that they can’t no more supress our voices.So how do we do collectively? Make women,not men,aware of their rights and responsibilities .And when the majority women,unlike today,are awre of their individuality and rights,together we move forwards and make a change.Untill then,until we convive thw eomen folk,it is better to be on safer side,bcoz even these women around will not stand by your side..Sad but true.. -Nimmy

        • Winnie the poohi
        • March 1st, 2009

        I cannot but agree with what you said.. and I would also like to add that one can only lead by example.. If we break the mold today.. tomorrow few more ppl will make effort.. If we wait for collective will.. it would never come sadly 😦

  10. Now that was a brilliant post and doesnt this conversation happen so often u just put in words… bravo to u…

    Though Miss B has a point but that is exactly what we need to change… to be stronger like Miss A and make the world accept it…

    IT IS NOT MY FAULT… I DIDNT INVITE IT

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    Hi Monika,welcome 🙂 Yes,I don’t say that Miss B is right,but note that she didn’t go with the ‘She deserved it mantra’. There should be a change,for sure.But remember that men didn’t develop this attitude overnight..This happened over oppressing and social conditioning women over centuries and it will take more centuries to bring back equality and fairness. Miss B is just saying to take small steps at a time.If you walk around in low cut blouses or minis in my village back home,even before the men would deal with it,women there would ahve reacted and ‘put here right’.We need to chnage the women’s attitude first.Sadly most women still think that ‘she deserved it’..change women first and the alone,we can change men .Till then,it is better to stay away form the eyes of vultures-how?let everybody decide for themselves what is good for them..-Nimmy

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 1st, 2009

      I agree to this point.. women have to change first. I have always believed in it If we respect ourself and our sexuality… men can never abuse it..

    • oh i abs agree to what u have said here… Women needs to be changed first I dont deny it and u know I have been saying that a lot even at IHM’s blog that sometimes I feel (leave aside mutalik and co for sometime) that women are the biggest enemies women can have

      we need to understand our rights…

      And i also agree with the point u have made abt villages (if i go to my hubbys village i always always wear saree/suit) but the point is I do it myself to respect their sentiments

      its not forced on me… but if i am forced to do that in the city i have a problem big problem…

      I live in blore and the past attacks that have beeb happening on women trust me THEY WERE NOT IN LOW CUT BLOUSES it was a jeans and top and now if they call that provocative I have a problem

  11. hmmm….basically we are animals and “sex” is one of the first need or want in Maslow’s hierarchy(ya well just giving a source)…The thing is every guy expects his girl to be sexy and every girl expects the guy to be rich/physically strong/some feature…And as we all know there is competition in the world,men try to get stronger and prove their strength and thus their ability to hold a house and women try to look “sexier” so that the best male are attracted….This is just to ensure the genes needed for living/surviving are passed on from gen to gen….

    If you take a class room of say 20 guys and 20 girls,a certain girl will attract more guys and a certain guy will attract a certain girl,this is because they have something desired by the others….guys looking at girls and girls at guys is nothing wrong,that is what we are supposed to be doing anyway but trying to force yourself on a girl is wrong…

    Rapists(not necessarily men alone) are weak who just try to “find some way” to make themselves feel they are superior..but as for extra marital affairs it is all in the game,I guess…

    Now let us say I have two frnds,one is a very “conservative” girl who is more comfie is salwar,another one is a girl who is pretty comfie in swimming clothes…Who would I be more attracted to? (I will let you answer this) then continue…

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    Vishesh,sorry to be harsh,but i am sick of this typical example of two sisters..Zakir Naik use a same example of two sisters-one in burkha and one in minis..Hell,isn’t there something called moderation- in between conservative and provocative?

    Given that majority women dress in the moderate manner,how come they are harassed? You quote the example of women in salwar and in swim suit..What if all women are in salwar?DOn’t tell me that men will then not find anything attractive or provocative.Then you will say women should not wear salwars which reveal shapes..If all women wear such shaped outfits,you will say that those with slits are provocative..If alll women wear slawars with slits,you will say that those with low backs are provocative..this goes on and on and on.Am I wrong?

    I agree with what you said initially,men and women try to please each other-there is nothing wrong in that,thatz how we are made biologically..Issue is only when one force themselves on the other.. -Nimmy

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 1st, 2009

      Vishesh it would also depend on what kind of person you are..

      It might be possible you are initially attracted to the firts girl. however, for how long ? What if the conservative girl is exceptionally beautiful or someone so social and fun to talk to and the non conservative girl is not that pretty or easier to talk to?

      And what if you come from such ultra-conservative family that you are offended by blatant sexuality ?

      So many possibilities no ?

    • ha so thats why I stopped with that question 🙂 You see,what you do conclude is that men find women who are dressed more scantily more “sexy”…not really,that is more the effect of movies and there too,they cover them with make up ,effects etc…While both are my friends,their attractiveness to me will depend on so many more things,i.e. ,this is where we humans are different from animals,we just don’t go by looks,we look for other things…Now of course,I might look at other things which would give my child an edge over others in the world we exist…I agree that we wear what is popular,simply because more of that is made…I think poohi has said it,there are so many other factors….

      Sexuality is the society is pretty prevalent,in fact if you compare our current society with 100 years back,we will find similarity…for eg,back then we got married early and so were aware of “those things”,now take a typical 11 or 12 year old and they would already be “talking” and “knowing”,is this a good trend or no? I would say this only shows we need to have proper sex education,to help making sure people are not mislead…I remember a post on Homosexuality in IHM’s blog and as mentioned there,kids tend to take it as “wrong” ,now you may ask how does affect a straight guy(me) ? What it does do is create homophobia and with it comes things like calling people who aren’t popular “gay” and thus leading to so many things…

      As for me we should wear what we are comfie in, because end of the day,we feel we are more sexy in that,but sometimes people might need a wardrobe change… Clothes are meant to protect us in cold,you can’t see any westerner walk in minis in December,say in London,that would be suicide…And the idea of head to toe,is pretty alien to people here(i.e. TN and kerala) I guess…

      So well to conclude (this comment ) what we do need to help those people who talk of indecent dressing etc is education,until we do that,such things will be there…The whole idea of culture is to have a sense of belonging,but how much? What if I say I don’t belong to this culture,but I live in this land? Or is it when in Rome,do what Romans do or be killed in the process? The reason why people do finally giveup to the majority is because they are more bothered about their progeny,that is why they simply get you married 🙂

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      I agree with you Vishesh.Education is the key.But please not that I never told that ‘she invites it’..I was telling to take more care as we have no choice.The point i made abotu dressing culturally was again an extention of this point-to stay out of focus. -Nimmy

  12. I agree with what Vishesh has to say on this topic. I also agree to your reply to a comment that you wear what most of the people in that place wear.

    As much as a guy is interested in looking at a girl, the girl is also equally interested to show herself attractive. Many women may refuse this, but facts are facts.

    But as a society, we tend to give more importance and attention to everything related to sex. It looks as the ultimate pleasure for us, and we tend to find the different flavors of it, which are better than the previous. I suggest people to dare to go one step further and discover activities that are amusing and amazing than physical attraction and the pleasure derived out of it. Being struck with only one way of having fun, is limiting yourselves and not exploring the options. Being obsessed with sex, can create exactly that situation. All the exposing and eve teasing is the result of this attitude.

    I would support Miss B in your conversation. This is by far the most balanced post that I have come across on this topic.

    Destination Infinity

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    I agree with you that it is a fact that both men and women dress to feel good-either in front of same sex or opposite sex.There is always a underlined competition and it is the survival of the fittest.Everything is fine as long as we don’t force our views on others..

    I would not go completely with Miss B bcoz she puts the burden of ‘taking care’ or responsibilty on women’s shoulders..How fair is that ? -Nimmy

  13. Nimmi, What an interesting way to present both sides. Actually there is only one side the other one is some primitive low life hiding behind age old culture and society talk.

    One of the best reads.

    After going through couple of comments I guess we also need a Mr. A and Mr. B post.

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    🙂 true,lets see if anybody from the other side will come up with that -Nimmy

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 1st, 2009

      That would be interesting to read.. a Mr A and Mr B post I mean 🙂

  14. Hi Nimmy I wrote a post to answer these questions of Ms B 🙂 Not all will satisfy Ms A, but I have tried. Don’t forget I am also a victim of this conditioning which blames women for most things.

    I basically don’t think more crimes are committed against women who are dressed attractively, I think more crimes are committed against women who will not be able to fight back, legally, socially, physically etc.

    Please tell me what you think, after reading my post.

      • Nimmy
      • March 1st, 2009

      IHM,I am just psting my reply here too,just to see how readable it is..You needn’t reply here bcoz then it will be here and there confusion.. Just keep in mind that my intentions are not against women,but for them.Maybe i am wrong,feel free to correct me ..Others,please read IHM’s post ,then alone you will get what my replies are all about..

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      🙂

      IHM,It seems that you missed Miss B’s argument that ‘she did not invite it’..Did Miss B say so?

      Ok,now lemme see your points..

      //If the hormonal/testosterone problem is very severe I once read the French government suggested some simple hormonal treatment to cure such anti social men, who are just not able to control themselves from raping/molesting.

      Tell me how do we know which among the men out there have this ‘extra’ thing and is irrestabily aroused to dresses? Do we know that they are perverts until and unless they attack us? Or is it that we ahve some telepathy to understand that the 9th man among the 10 is a pervert and that we should atke him to hospital??

      //Sex crimes are a result of provocation or Opportunism?

      Of course it is about opportunism..Did Miss B say otherwise?Not all men are aroused or are intimidated by a woman’s dress.but some are.But dear,how do1 we know who among our friends belong to this second class?

      //They are free to look. Only look. Appreciate? Sure.

      Sorry i don’t like being scaned and raped by eyes .I feel ashamed of being a virtual treat to some random men on streets..

      //Pass remarks? Touch? Molest? No.

      To my understanding,it is humane to pass comments as ‘wow’ or ‘geez’..Its involuntary response..Or is it that you see a beaituful rose,but move away turing your back on it..Yes,we may not dare to touch or smell it or squash it if the rose is somebody else’s ..But expecting others not to pass comments is too much..Or is it that good remarks are welcome and others aren’t ??Why do women not protest against good remarks,if they are against passing remarks??

      //Maybe they feel good when men and women look at them. Maybe they just look good for themselves. That’s their problem. Molesting a woman is still not permissible.

      Reference to attention seeking was not related to invitation for molesting..You read it wrong..Isn’t it ironic to say that they need attention,but they don’t want comments or remarks?How logical is that?

      //Because In have no idea what will NOT attract comments except teaching the commenter a lesson

      In our judiciary system,you will take a few years to teach lessons to a single commentator,forget teaching the hundreds or thousands you deal with on streets and buses..If you are ready to live a life in courts,go for it,but i am not.

      //This also shows why we need women in positions of decision making.

      Of course..Did Miss B say otherwise??

      [regarding the incident ion a different country,we have more than enough varities of molesting in our own nation..We need to correct ourselves before losing sleep over somebody else’s nation..

      //We get offended because we know we are right.

      To me,people get offended when they are not sure of themselves and have inferiority complex..

      //When we ask her to cover her body to avoid provoking men into crimes, then we make her a sexual object.

      I agree completely..But then again,I wonder why some women show off their assets to look sexy and hot? We have infinite women magazines telling us how to look spicy and garam…

      //We know of women who are victims of inscest, abuse and torture but never dare to speak, because they know they will be made to feel like it’s their fault.

      You prove my point that i discussed i my blog,that if there had been a strict law and order system,things would have been better,rather speding a whole life trying to change rigid people.If law and order had been strict,rigid perverts would chnage on their own..

      //Clothing is symbolic

      Yes,every dress sends a message depending on how and where you are.. Why don’t we wear bikni’s to office? Why don’t we wear burkhas to discos?

      //The fact is that safer cities for everyone else are automatically safer for women too. This shows that if the law of the land is upheld, women (and hence families) are also safer.

      Yes,thatz why I said to strenghthen the law and order system instead of moral policing random men on streets.

      //Punish a few, condemn all, and see the difference it makes.Men who attack do that only because they know that there is a strong chance that they can get away with it.

      Yes,that is the solution..But until that situation is reachedmwhat should we do?Risk ourselves or take care?

      //When we talk of provocative dressing we give them a very strong message that they will not be blamed, they were provoked. That’s a very dangerous message to give in a civil society.

      True,very true..Did Miss B say otherwise,did she say that ‘she deserved it’ or ‘She asked for it’ ??

      //everybody had always lived in such fears women would still be wearing traditional clothing of their native places.

      Very true.As Winne said little time agin,it is bcoz of the scarifices of the first pioneers of freedom ,that we enjoy what we have today. As Miss B said,go for it,if you have it in you ,to take that extra step and move forward..I really hope that more and more women come this way,but above all,i hope that they will take care of themselves during the journey.This is why i talked about being collective in actions as not to get defeated…

      //Along with economic independence, success, wealth comes the freedom to enjoy looking good and having fun.

      Freedom comes with a price .Getting raped is not the price of freedom of clothing and it should not be that way.But this is not really a free world and your freedom ends where mine starts.

      //but don’t fall into this trap of believing that being dressed ‘modestly’ will protect you.

      Please read my post and see for youself that Miss B never said that burkha or any modest dress will make you immune to abuse..

      The whole post is not about asking women to absatin from dressing provocatively ,but to take care as to not attract much attention..Perverts are going to do it anyway,so lessen you being the choice by staying out of focus .Also,Miss B was reffering to both males and women and not girls alone,as appeared here…

      Love..

      p.s :IHM :don’t take things personally ok ..I am confused and hence i shared my thoughts..By sharing thoughts i am learning more and i am not rigid in my ideas..((hugs))

  15. All you FCP’s are doing is demanding rights without responsibilities while holding the male gender responsible for your own poor choices that is not the mark of a reasonable female but then again I’m not surprised since the reasonable females I know can be counted on one hand…

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 1st, 2009

      Dude! We have rights.. and we need not demand it.. its ours already 🙂

      Also.. We are not talking just against men.. We are also talking against women who r unreasonable.. if you remove your prejudiced spectacles you can clearly see that

    • @dabir: just read your comments,hmm..so let us say you that,by what you are saying,the same good nature has programmed us to respond ….how do you know your views are your true? let me ask ,what makes you think you are right and we are wrong? And is violence justified? Please answer the questions and also explain the reason for your beliefs ,after all we are talking reason here…

  16. Vishesh are you really that ignorant of the human condition? Don’t you ever read something else besides romance novels? Don’t you ever take the time to watch the education channels on the cable and Satellite networks? My own wife respects me enough not to send sexual signals to other men by dressing modestly when in public which is why I know that I can trust her…

    • Me? romance novels? wonderful,isn’t it better if you answer the question and enlighten me then ,please I am aware of the human condition of not getting to the point but digressing just to avoid answering the questions…oh and the education channels,like? Mind being clear and not being so cryptic? And please check about what people are before commenting what they might be doing..your conclusions are as baseless and more borrowed and basically prejudiced…if you are so into what you say,be clear,so that we know what you really are and thus we can try put it in a language you understand…so please respond to my questions and be clear…

    • And what about you? You respect her enough to let her make her own choice?

      Isnt it her right to wear what she likes? Will you be dictated by what you should watch on TV by her choice? I guess even there your choice influences her right?

      Is that what you call respect or submission ?

  17. Winnie if you don’t want to be seen as a sex object and want to be taken seriously then dress accordingly…Dress like a street walker and I will be more then happy to label any and all such immodest females as SEXUAL PREDATORS…

    • As if I care about what you will label me!

      As they say dog barks.. Wise ppl ignore them 🙂

  18. Go and see the top less women in the villages of Nagaland. If dressing up or the lack of it was the reason, the rapes would take place there every minute.
    There are two kinds of wrong doers. One is the category who will commit a crime like theft, rape etc, regrdless of the presence of provocation. They are like suicide fidayeens who don’t bother about the obstacles in the way and least bother about the repucussions. One can’t do any thing about them except remaining alert.

    Second is the ones who may commit a crime if there is provocation or attraction. Like a purse lying unattended in a public place. Or a girl scantily dressed walking alone in a deserted street. Like the citizens are told by the security agencies to secure their belongings to deter theft or crime, similarly it is better to dress up nicely at such places where the attraction may prove dear.

    —————————-

    Hi Balvinder.welcome 🙂 I am very much familiar with your thoughts through IHM’s blog…

    I completely agree with you.I have said that in a nude beach,it is not the absence,but the presence of clothes that bring you in limelight.So,its not about clothes. All I was talking about was to stay out of limelight so that YOU in particular falls in the eyes of the predator.. -Nimmy

  19. Oh Really…

    Of the Naga women ot Assam it is said: “Of clothing there was not much to see; but in spite of this I doubt whether we could excel them in true decency and modesty. Ibn Muhammed Wali had already remarked in his history of the conquest of Assam (1662-63), that the Naga women only cover their breasts. They declare that it is absurd to cover those parts of the body which everyone has been able to see from their births, but that it is different with the breasts, which appeared later, and are, therefore, to be covered. Dalton (Journal of the Asiatic Society, Bengal, 41, 1, 84) adds that in the presence of strangers Naga women simply cross their arms over their breasts, without caring much what other charms they may reveal to the observer. As regards some clans of the naked Nagas, to whom the Banpara belong, this may still hold good.” (K. Klemm, “Peal’s Ausflug nach Banpara,” Zeitschrift fur Ethnologie, 1898, Heft 5, p. 334.)

    http://books.google.com/books?id=ri8SAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA14&ots=WsJj21mF5C&dq=nudity%20in%20villages%20of%20Nagaland&pg=PA14&output=text

  20. The intellectual dishonesty and immorality exhibited by FCP’s (feminists) is so breathtaking that it never ceases to amaze me… 🙂

      • Nimmy
      • March 1st, 2009

      Maybe you could be more social and mindful about the words being used..Yes,we are discussing,but keep it friendly and please no calling names as immorals and like.. I suggest you to get rid of the sterotyping and prejudice that femenists are dishonest and immoral.

  21. Nimmy Wrote: “Sorry i don’t like being scaned and raped by eyes.”

    You have got to be kidding and to even suggest using Hormonal Treatments in order to suppress the normal male response to visual sexual stimulation is like claiming that all a hysterical woman needs is a Hysterectomy…

    I’ve got news for you Nimmy women also scan and rape with their eyes as well…Once while out in public I caught a woman walking by trying to catch a glimpse inside the v neck tee shirt I was wearing…On another occasion a woman standing behind me told me right there in front of my wife that I had a CUTE BUTT…

    Speaking of perverts back in the 90’s the Georgia Legislature rewrote the Statutory Rape laws making it a crime for the first time for adult women to sexually prey on underage boys…Since then there has been an explosion in the prosecution of female perverts all over the United States…

    Nimmy this blog is far from friendly, I have called me an MCP and the females here freely Stereotype and condemn the male gender while promoting what is considered by reasonable people to be immoral behavior…While the mere suggestion to Forcibly control men using hormonal treatments is cruel, insane and tyrannical to say the least…

    As of today I will be adding this blog as just one of many that actively promotes Misandy (hatred of men)

    ——————————————–

    Dabir, the reference of chemical castration was about not the normal males who are just passing comments,the refernce was about rapists.

    Yes,women too rape with eyes and flirt,i dind’t say that men alone are doing all this.The bottomline is of both parties being modest.

    This blog,neither did any of the commentators condemn or stereotype males as a whole.Please see for yourself that many of the commentators themselves are males.We are talking about those men who are perverts and that is understood..Most women here are married and have family and we know very well that men and women compliment each other .But that doesn’t mean that one party can force themselevs on the other one,and that is what we are talking about.I wonder why you felt otherwise,maybe you already has a prejudice that feminists hate men.Please correct yourself.

    And no worries about MCP,you called us FCP 🙂
    And regarding the ‘ cruel, insane and tyrannical ‘ treatment that perverts deserve,I still stand by what i said..Perverts should have their private parts smashed by stone and pepper spary applied in equal intervals of time -Nimmy

  22. Correction Instead of writing “I have called me an MCP” I should have wrote I have been called an MCP…

    Pixie wrote: I strongly believe and will do to my last breath that women ahve the freedom to wear what she want.But let me ask you something?Are men around us that good enough to perceive this? Hell no.Most of them are MCPs who have no spine or shame to vent off their sexuality at random women-either by words or by actions.

    Others have also referred to me as an animal all in defense of female immorality…

  23. BTW Nimmy I take my wife with me to the dr. as a witness just in case the poorly dressed wench decides to falsely accuse me of sexual harassment…Talk about perverts the last female dr. I went to in order to have my blood pressure checked tried to get me to undress for her on the pretense of doing a physical exam that is something that not even my last male dr. would have dared asked me to do…

    —————————-

    🙂 ..Stop going to that doctor if you are uncomfortable.Or complain for sexual harassment ..-Nimmy

  24. Dabir, if you don’t want to be called an animal, don’t act like one. Men differ from animals by having a cerebral cortex; it’s function is to suppress the lower physical responses; if you have one and don’t use it, you are effectively nothing more than an animal.

    Speaking as a male, I can go to a strip club and be surrounded by dozens of women who are often completely nude and not have a problem. You, on the other hand, have problems just walking down the street, or going to the doctor. The difference is that I am mature enough to take responsibility for myself and you’re not: Where you force others, like your wife, to be responsible for you, I respect them and accept the fact that others have different ideas. The threats and violence you imply are far more immoral than any immodesty.

    Dude, you have some serious issues, and you should seriously think about getting therapy to help you with them. Be a man: Grow up.

    ——————

    No personal insults or references please…Tear apart the idea and thoughts,but not the person in individual.. -Nimmy

  25. well ,he hasn’t replied to my comment yet..thanks,save it,guess we better ignore you know till you reply to my questions…what do you Nimmy?

    ———————————-

    🙂 I better not interefere in parallel talks,unless it is anything offensive .You are fre to talk and decide on your own -Nimmmy

  26. It just so happens Vishesh that I have been studying these issues for well over twenty years and just recently I watched a television program on SEX that was based on the most recent scientific research in human reproduction…That is how I know that I am right…

    Uzza the only reason a male has for going to a strip club is to pay for what he can’t see at home for free otherwise the rest of your comment is spoken like a true blue doormat…

    • Actually, my girlfriend wanted to know what went on in those places, so I took her to see. She even got a lap dance. Everybody had a nice time, and no one hurt or upset; far more moral than your condemnations and threats.

  27. Apparently for a man it is normal male response to visual sexual stimulation but in the case of women they happen to be female perverts! Could it possibly be double standards?!

    Dabir, you say that women should dress modestly then, why shouldn’t you also wear something that appropriately covers your body hence saving you from “perverted” comments? Why bother going to a female doctor at all?

    —————————————–

    Kriti,welcome to my blog 🙂

    Yes,it is hypocritical that ‘it is ok’ with men and ‘it is insane’ when it comes to women..Nita wrote a post last day on how we are hypocritical about prematiral sex-‘men will do it anyway,but women should never do it’..It is veryu funny and yet hell annoying that men can dress whatever the way they like-women are expected to keep restrainted..But women cannot dress the way they like-bcoz men can’t keep control of themselves..**rolls eyes**

    Keep coming -Nimmy

  28. BTW there is almost enough snow on the ground here where I live for me to celebrate my manhood by building a giant PHALLUS… 🙂

    • maald
    • March 1st, 2009

    For those not ready to turn LOOSE

    Mothers Against ‘Loosers’

    http://maald.wordpress.com/

    ————————————-

    Maald,welcome 🙂 Intersting and different blog out there.. -Nimmy

  29. Nimmy, I just wonder, if I were to argue it this way. Lets say you like wearing jewelery. And I admire the beautiful dangling earrings you are wearing. And want them. Badly enough to snatch them from your ears. SO well, shouldn’t you have been careful not to flaunt them around? Just wondering i the “be careful” part applies here too. Oh and also your car, which in envy I may vandalize or other accessories of yours. Maybe you should just not show them around.

    ——————————————


    Alankrita,I am afraid that you all are getting me wrong.I am not telling that dress is the reason for abuse and that ‘she deserved it’..I was talking about dressing in a way as to stay away from the lecherous eyes of perverts..But after talking to you all ,after this discussion i have realized that rape or such abuse is more of a law and order situation rather than sexuality.But that is where my question is important-we don’t have a good law and order situation and in that case,what should women like you and me do? the same goes for jewelery. I have lot of jewellery ,but that doesn’t men i have to flaunt it in public,wherever i go..for i fear that theives will notice it and break into my house the next day..here will the theives on the streets,but that doens’t men i should walk like Penthacoast people who wear no jewelery at all.but atleast i should not do the way how some women in my town do-move around as like a jewelery shop….And yes,even if we keep it in bank,those who are hell bent over stealing it will do it anyway,but atleast,i am glad that i had done my part..t. – -Nimmy

  30. Good post and an interesting way of presenting 2 views.My Take
    1. Most Rapes and other forms of sexual harassment of Women are methods used by men in a Patriarchal society to terrorize women and maintain their hold on power. The vulnerable sections [among women] are more targeted because chances of legal punishments are less. So here low social status and not the way of dressing determines who is the victim. Hormones have no role.

    2.A free and independent woman [who may dress liberally] is considered as a threat to the Patriarchal society. So there may be an attempt to harass such women as it happened in Mangalore pub. The provocation here is not sexual, but the courage of such women to stand up against the unwritten rules of the society. Hormones have no role here.
    How you should deal with this? If you want to be a free and independent woman in both thoughts and deeds go ahead and be such a woman. No one should stop you.If some one stop you then you fight it out by all means,physical and legal.Some women and men will support you now and in future I feel most men and women will support you as the society changes. If you are afraid of fighting it out and like to remain unnoticed and is thus not showing any sigs of revolt you may still be harrassed,especially if you are poor or you land up in a lonely place.The motive here is what I stated in first paragraph. The rich and the powerful as always usually escapes ‘punishment’ for breaking the rules.
    Naga tribes are in hunter-gatherer society stage. So no violence on women.

    But all rapists are not the same.
    Some rapists [including female rapists] are sexual perverts. They resort to rape due to the diseased nature of their mind. They need medical help. Here also hormonal levels have not much role. Pattern of dressing is also irrelevant here. Low socio economic status,very young or very old,lonely places etc may have some role here.
    Your post and IHM’s took all my time…No time for a new post on my blog……….[sad]….Good night

    • Well put. Rape/harrassment is not about sex. Can’t be said enough.

      • Nimmy
      • March 2nd, 2009

      Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts..As a Doctor i am sure that your views are based on real life experiences..

      Tell me something,how safe it is for me to walk in mini skirts through our streets,in our so called completely-literate and enlightened state?

  31. Kriti the only double standards are the one that you ladies (and I use that term loosely) are espousing…The reason that my wife and I go to a female dr. is because after seeing a male dr. previously we chose to try a female dr. when the company I work for changed insurance companies which has turned out to be a big mistake that is soon to be corrected…

    Viva la Pinga

  32. if i go in market and some one whistles at me or pass a comment on my long legs or cute butt, what would i complain for?

    it is not harassment but Freedom Of Speech/Expression of that person.

    Until commenting or eveteasing does not reach the height of Physical attack, I or any other woman cannot and should not mind it.

    A woman can mind it if she is walking in her lawn or on a private road or a private mall, where she can register her opposition by either disallowing the person commenting on her to enter her private space, or by denouncing the usage of that private road or private shop/mall/cinema hall etc where the owner of that private property allows such foul commenters.

    overall, property rights are necessary to register any complain against freedom of epression of other person.

    Second thing is, if any commenter breaches the liberty accord and goes on to physical attack, than a free girl always have the option of selfdefense, use the handgun!

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 2nd, 2009

      Makes sense 🙂

      • Nimmy
      • March 2nd, 2009

      I agree…Actually,until yesterday,till IHM sent me a link,I didn’t ever feel that passing comments is ok..Though i am not fully into it,i leave behind my view that one should not pass comments,it is his freedom of expression..You are right in the first point..

      but what about the second? Gun!! lol,How i wish it happened before i left this world…

    • ruSh.Me
    • March 2nd, 2009

    Provocative or Not!! This is definitely, NOT OUR ASKING!!!

    Last Saturday, I was out with my boyfriend and a Swiss colleague of his.. We were walking on a footpath, going towards a cafe.. Since I was wearing jeans and a sleeveless top, naturally, men all around were shamelessly staring… The Swiss colleague of my boyfriend was appalled and he asked me, “Why are all these people staring at you??”.I said, “Oh! Nothing, they have never seen a girl before.. so may be that’s why!! or may be they have never seen a girl with 2 guys (one of them is white)..or may be they are just staring at you!!”
    😀
    He was just shaking his head and we changed the topic… Being a girl, one is quite conditioned for staring/commenting, regardless what she is wearing!! Earlier it would bother me, I have slapped a few for glancing at the minimum cleavage that would be visible from a well-covered up salwar-kurta… But then now, regardless of whatever I am wearing… I stare back and if necessary, show him the finger and walk away!!! Its pleases me a lot…!!

      • Winnie the poohi
      • March 2nd, 2009

      *sigh*

      • Nimmy
      • March 2nd, 2009

      🙂 I hope I evolve into that state very soon

  33. Time was, when all a woman had to do was to raise an alarm that someone was eve teasing her and the entire crowd would jump in with chappals and “ghar mein ma behan nahi hai kya?” – where did we leave those times?
    Time was when women wore backless cholis and tight kameezes(covered by a dupatta) and no one really minded. They were not “sexual objects” it was just their traditional dress. Where did we leave those times?

    I like wearing short skirts. I wear them inside and outside the house. I wear them with short tops. They are extremely functional in summers and handy to work around the house. Does that mean i like being looked at? No, i do not like being looked at. In fact, i dont give a damn what u think. Or look. your eyes are your problem. Stop blaming me for your roving eye.

    About women having to face the consequences of dressing immodestly, Woman, GET A BLOODY LIFE! The more u bend the more u will be broken. In a society where women always dress modestly, a woman who was raped was the one punished. Thats the effect of dressing modestly.

    What you should be writing instead is “Why all women must know Karate AND must carry pepper spray.”

    I m dissapointed.

      • Nimmy
      • March 3rd, 2009

      Hi,sorry i missed to reply …Welcome to my blog …

      The more u bend the more u will be broken.

      Yeah,I know…

      In a society where women always dress modestly, a woman who was raped was the one punished. Thats the effect of dressing modestly.

      Saudi doesn’t count as a civilized nation and neither is burkha related to modesty,so your point stand void.. But yes,in all,i garee with what you said..If you want a change,dare to do it..-Nimmy

  34. I came in late i guess, but DABIR, get a life mate… !!!

    males and females are two differenct sexes and nothing more….

    means of behaviour, superiority, inferiority or ways of dressing have got nothing to do with it !!

    its our folly that we think some people are supposed to behave in a certain manner. Its high time every one started respecting the other person’s freedom ! especially of females in these times when such RAM Sena’s are becoming active.. !!

    How she dresses is her own free will… if some one gets excited fine… but if that excited guy starts to make moves and cannot control himself its his bloody problem… you cannot justify or protect his move as being provocated…!!

    I totally disagree with you mate !

  35. Dhiren I have been married for over 27 years…Grow a back bone and quite letting women walk all over your back mate…

  36. You think this is letting the woman all over your back mate ??

    You know you what I want my wife to wear short clothes, noodle straps but at times am weary that it is inviting trouble….

    so we are like lets go to some far of places… like out of the country or in distant hilly villages where the folk are a lot more calmer and a lot more sane…

    While i try to avoid that trouble and be careful … the point is I actually shouldn’t be doing it !!!!

    its shameful and the worst compliment a society can get… Isnt our country supposed to be a free, liberal, secular and a secure world… Providing security & freedom to the females and children should be the number one priority of any nation.

    If you think that this trouble exists only because of females and nothing else …. well Dabir … i am afraid I can say no more to you ….

    • Nimmy
    • March 2nd, 2009

    Hello all,thanks a ton for sharing your thoughts..I am sorry,I am not able to reply to last few comments,in individual,though i have been sitting in front of pc for the last few hours,with a blank mind..Will do it soon.. This post ended up more complicated than the posts on freedom of expression..I respect your opinions and am not adamant in my beliefs..I have learned a lot in these two days and especially,the link IHM provided has helped me change my perspectives…

    I ,in no way, said that dress is responsible for the abuse we receive..Whether it is salwar or in Low cut jeans,we are going to get teased anyway..but being in low cut or whatever dress makes us more prone.Agreed it is unfair,but what else choice do we have?The system is rotten and the law and order system is not in order.Yeah,agreed that perverts will do it anyway,but in our place,are you damn sure that dresses have no effect of spectators??I don’t know..maybe i live in a different world,where people stare at me when i wear a nice dress and it makes me embarrassed and feels like that i have done something wrong,bcoz even women stare at you with contempt in their eyes..One is free to choose what she wants-as and how the environment she is in…With this, I am exhausted completely and i took 5-6 hours to write these 3-4 lines..Sorry,I can’t convince myself that dressing has absolutely no effect of the people around. Again,remember that rape alone is not molestation..Isn’t passing vulgar remarks and dirty looks abuse? To me it is,and i hate it and i will try my level possible to stay out of focus of such sickos..Maybe i don’t have it in my to be daring and make my own choices and go for it ….

    I need a break…lol..I am feeling so low..Please feel free to continue sharing your thoughts..

    Good day to all

    • Aam Insaan
    • March 2nd, 2009

    The adivasi/african tribal women are more scantily dressed than the super-rich designer outfit wears – it seems the so called civilized society is more uncivilized & perverted than the people whom they term as uncivilized…

    ————————-

    lol,so true,so true ,so true… 🙂 -Nimmy

  37. Nimmy, don’t feel so low. Your post was good and resulted in a big debate. Take it like that and continue posting in such topics.
    I feel you, IHM and most others who commented agree on many points. You are reluctant to take the plunge as you feel you will be more liable to abuse and you feel you are not up to it. That is your personal decision and I feel majority of Women in India will take the same stand.
    Others feel, anyway you will be abused, so why not be brave and optimistic and take the plunge and fight it out so that abuse will stop. Changes in the society come only with brave fight against injustice and I support them.
    Nimmy, I am sure if anyone of your friends or relatives got abused you will not blame them, the victim.

    ———————–

    Thanks for your words Charakan..But not the last sentence.I hope it never happens..I am not against people who have it in them ,neither will i say ‘She deserved it’.. As you said,maybe i just don’;t have it in me 😦 Ah,i just realized after this post,how small my world is … ***sigh***-Nimmy

  38. but what about the second? Gun!! lol,How i wish it happened before i left this world…

    I do not know what you mean by that.

    Let’s consider (assume) this, I live in Mumbai, one evening when I get a little freedom, I go out for a stroll or walk. I am wearing a yellow jheeni saari, with an attractive yellow blouse. I deliberately tie my sareee below my naval, and wow my blouse is backless.

    I move in the most sexy moves i can present, and I do enjoy the youths exhaling deep breaths on seeing me, glaring at me with praise and pleasure, I am enjoying each and every move I take, and they are enjoying that too.
    They whistles, they comments.
    Some comments can be complimentary, I enjoy them, some comments can be abusive. I do not care.

    Suddenly a car stops near me, forces me to get in and in the car two goons start toring my dress off attacking me physically, I know they will rape me what should i do?

    Somehow I get my hands behind and I take the hidden hand gun out of my saree sleeves.

    Now, The physical attackers know I have power to fight against, either they agree to drop me free and let me go, or they decide to overpower me with my gun.

    If they decide to overpower me, i can shoot, and save myself from expected degradation and brutal death. So I do have an option.

    In absence of handgun, its sure i will be raped and most probably I will be killed or i will suffer scars.

    It is not necessary that i was wearng a sey saree in the aforesaid story, i might be in simple official dress , may be i was returning from my office when the abductors tried on me.

    Once the goons realize that I have gun, they won’t try to overpower me through their brutal means. They will learn better ways. Some of them may propose me for a night out and then it is my freedom either to say yes or no. I am safe because I can defend Myself.

    Now elaborate it a little more.

    I was strolling, and I reach near restaurant leopold or Hotel taj, I realized that there are some terrorists shooting at innocent public with their AK 47, I know i can be killed too just like other innocent people, yet I have a hand gun. while a terrorist was shooting people, i decide to shoot him to save some innocent people and i shoot at him.

    hand guns generally does not kill people, they just harm them enough to stop them from doing any attack, yet the terrorist can be killed by my hand gun too.

    Any ways, it will save many lives.
    A safety gun is always helpfull, every citizen should be self-sufficent to safeguard himself.

    otherwise even state police abducts and kills innocent people.
    12 cops are charged with murder.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/12-cops-charged-with-murder/articleshow/4214167.cms

    So you see, if i have a safety gun, i can oppose such brutal government authorized killing.

    Anyways, i prefer safety guns and private security system for every indian. That avoids mass murders like we suffered in Meerut, Aligarh, Ayodhya, Gujrat, Amritsar and many other places including Mumbai.

    ———————————-


    Gargi,I was only agreeing to you,but by my reply,i was just staying that I hope that day comes soon,when women will courageous enough to safeguard themsleves,by their own means,may it be guns or karate..I completely agree with your viewpoint,just doubtful of how many women will ahve it in them to be brave and courageous during moments of terror.Forget women,I don’t thik even men are brave enough to act rightly when terrified.but maybe thatz my underestimati..I appreciate you taking time to commment in detail -Nimmy

  39. Dhiren if you think that all the feminists want is equal rights and to wear whatever that want then my friend you are sadly mistaken…Because the feminists won’t stop until women have the right to marry each other (same sex marriage) the right to murder their children through the means of an abortion and to shoot their husbands in the back when they grow tired of them while financially enslaving the rest of the males they chose to keep alive…

    • Never mind Dabir… forget I mentioned anything !!

      your free to think your way…

      I dont think we can see the things in the same vein !

    • So Dalton, you are against same sex marriages, you are against a woman’s right to abortion, and you are sure that women want to shoot their husbands and financially enslave men. have you heard of a word called Love? Women love their husbands.. and their children. An abortion means a bill to a man and a permanent scar to a woman.

      You are discounting that small thing called Love. its not men vs women.. it never was. its power vs abuse of power. it always was.

  40. Nimmy ((Hugs))))see all of us are right here na?:))
    and you are a balanced gal!:D
    hai na?:)
    we know how honest you are and how you think so clearly..:))
    continue doing that:)and Charakan is absolutely right:)dont feel low..you are talking sense too
    there are a lot of grey areas here..its fine its some other loony people okay make that person I have a problem with 😀

    Nimmy((hugs)))arre ek post hi toh hai?
    Music suna?
    dont lie to a teacher okay?jo bola tha sab kiya? 😛

    ((hugs))

    ———————————–

    Thanks a lot for your words Abhi..Mabe me feel great..Yeah,meine appki baat suni teacher 🙂 I baked,listened to music,spent time with my plants…but geee,life is still dull and unfair..Its not the blog,but real life issues that bother me..Nevermind,i have you all to talk to…I am going to have a new post and run away from this one..lol.. 😉 -Nimmy

  41. Nimmy, this is just to reply to your “do our part”. What is “our part”. What dress is provocative? Ankles? Knees? Short sleeves, short sleeved blouses- and how much cleavage? Is a Sari conservative? With the back and the shoulders bare? Is a salwar kameez good enough- and if so how should the chunni be draped? Over the head? Hair- Short? Long? Makeup- now that can be a turn on… so what is “non-provocative”? It is so difficult to define. And therefore just as abuse-worthy- if the “she was immodestly dressed, she provoked me” defense is to be taken seriously. Because what is “accepted” by some may not be by others.
    And we are not even looking at things from the other point of view. Why is it that we never take into account how the way men may dress may be as “provocative”. You know, with 50% of the population men, that should be an issue too. So why isn’t it common to hear of women having heir baser instincts aroused by some man and assaulting him. Maybe, it is not so common because of the assumed privilege that men enjoy- women learn to “control” themselves. Men, well, it is always the woman’s fault.
    I can understand why this conversation can be a reality- but when you really pare it down to the bare bones, you realize how inherently sexist the view is. Just replace “men and women” by different races or religions and “provocative dressing” by something else, maybe the right to walk down a certain street. It will immediately begin to seem very offensive. Living in a sexist society, we do not realize how completely sexist and “slut-shaming” assertions about “proper dress” or”decent behavior” are. Indeed, this is a conversation I have heard several times. And quite often felt too that Miss B makes sense, but on deeper examination her attitude reflects just how completely she has been engulfed by a world view which inherently makes a woman inferior. Being careful is a good thing. But it boomerangs in that it breeds a degree of helplessness and lets the perpetrators go unpunished. It lets a lassitude creep into society, a tolerance for law breaking and it demonizes the other sex too. “Men are animals” is easy to say, but that is as bad a stereotype as “women are weak”. Be careful is excellent advice, but haven’t we heard it always? Careful in terms of what to wear, how to behave, whom to mingle with- and does it really help. As far as I know it serves to let crimes of harassment be trivialized, rape justified as “she asked for it” and a reckless lawlessness take over.
    We cannot change everyone in society.We cannot make everyone view things our way. We cannot make people view the sexes as being equal. What we can do, however, is to call out on inherent misogyny when we observe it. We can also think deeply about issues we come across, even he very “compelling arguments”. And above all we can and should not keep curtailing our own freedoms just because perverts live in our society.

    ——————–

    I understand dear..I am wondering why i am thinking like the way i do now…Yes,it is indeed sexist to the core and it is very much hypocritical that men can do anything they want,but women are expected not to be bothered,wherewas in vice versa,men can’t just control themselves..This comment is simply right and superb and i am going to make it a s a new psot so that everybpdy will read it..Thanks a lot for trying to understand me Alankrita.. -Nimmy

  42. Oh, my God. This was a hell of a big comments section. Reading everyone I’m totally confused about what the original post was!! No one defined provocative dressing, right? Trust me, men are men and each one gets a different reason to get triggered. Some even get triggered by women with specs while some get triggered by a voice. It all depends on what sexual dreams or experiences they have had!!

    I would like to present some points of veiw to consider and think –

    1: A sexy woman with liberally blessed assets is a sexy woman even if she’s born in US, Uganda or in India and no matter what she wears, be it a saree or a short shirt she will look sexy

    2: An average looking girl revealing, say a thigh with a slit in her skirt will attract a lot of gaping in a restricted society like India (the more restricted city the better) but will not even attract an eyebrow raise in open liberal societies like the west where everyone wears what they are comfortable with. People will stare at you if you wear something inappropriate in places like the beach or say to the church. For example – They don’t wear Churdithars or say jeans at the beach, they wear bathing suits

    3: The more sophisticated and fashionable the girl is, the more bolder she looks. Rapists and molesters target the weak and the “easily patao-able” types

    4: There is no link between rape and sexual curosity. All young men and women are curious

    5: 80% of men get stimulated by the “all covered” women because of the mystery attached to her vital statistics

    Since we are really affected by the movies and the media, I think what is required for the Indian mentality is mature movies which shows sex and sexual desires in a positive way. Sex in love and between lovers should be shown and not vulgar pelvic oscillating songs. Side heroes and villians with lip smacking gestures everytime a women is shown should be banned. All rape scenes, scenes showing voyeurism should also be banned. All this cultivate the mind of the young generation in looking at women with a purpose.

    These are just my views. Keep Blogging!!

    Hey Biju,I was wondering why didn’t you comment on the post,and here you are 🙂 Thanks for sharing your views.

    3: The more sophisticated and fashionable the girl is, the more bolder she looks. Rapists and molesters target the weak and the “easily patao-able” types

    4: There is no link between rape and sexual curosity. All young men and women are curious

    ———————-

    Yeah,after all the comments and discussion i too ahve come to this conclusion that molestors attack women who are weak and have no much access to justice. And yes,I have also concluded that it is ok to comment on each other,but not go beyond the personal space..When you see a woman in minis,near Marine Drive, you just look at her,comment and move on,isn’t it? As a guy,tell me if any of you will bother to follow the girl? and try to talk to her or touch her..Don’t go to extremes as rape and all.. -Nimmy

    • Sorry for not commenting earlier in your space. I actually make it a point to give my tired eyes some rest in the weekend since Monday I’ve to be back doing all the reviewing and reading at work 🙂

      Commenting is a very positive thing. When someone says, “hey, you look sexy!” That’s a very positive comment in the west! After all we dress up nicely and powder our noses for the society!!

      If a guy follows a girl and seeks her attention, why don’t the girls understand that he’s smitten by her beauty and would like to know more about her and probably love and marry her? Do girls expect only the people known to her to court and woo her?

  43. I have not been able to read through all comments. But my take is simple. At home I dress comfortably in skimpy clothes like shorts for comfort. I dare not do it outside as I am a coward because I am afraid of the ignorant people like you said. I admire any woman who defines these people and wears what she wants. Not all women wear skimpy clothes for making themselves look sexually attractive, this is a fallacy and the ego of a man who believes the woman is dressing to attract him. Yes some women do dress because they want to be admired, they want their bodies to admired, but they simply want to be admired, not leched at or pawed. If a man leches or paws it shows his mentality. Frankly I would never blame a woman an iota because I do not think there is anything wrong in wanting to be sexually attractive. It is in our nature to want to attract the opposite sex, but no woman likes unwanted gestures etc. And let me repeat, not all women wear skimpy clothes to be sexually attractive.

    I came over to your place many times to see if you are active in blogosphere,bcoz i really wanted to know your opinion on this..Thanks for coming over ..You seem to be confused like me.. 😦

    It is in our nature to want to attract the opposite sex, but no woman likes unwanted gestures etc.

    I wonder what these unwanted gestures are? Is touch alone the unwanted gesutre?Is everything else ok to you -as taking it as somebody else’s freeodm of expression??

    And yes,i agree that not all dress to look sexy-to msot fashion is all about comfort and attitude,not just sexy or spicy.. -Nimmy

  44. I also want to add that I have seen men go crazy even when they see an ankle or a woman’s upper arms, or the area above her cleavage. At the same time I see that Indian men are not very interested in the area of the back where a woman’s saree blouse ends and her saree starts, but if the same woman wears a top which reveals the same area he will go crazy because of some misconception that the woman is doing it to attract him! How pathetic.

    ————————–

    Yeah,I agree.. Simply bcoz they think Saree is ‘traditional’ they are ok with the seen skin,but when the same waist is seen bcoz of wearing a top,its all hulla-ballu..But there are some men who don’t let their wife let wear saree bcoz of this reason..Neither saree,nor any dress that make her feel good -bcoz he finds it sexy lol…***rolls eyes*** -Nimmy

    • Nimmy
    • March 3rd, 2009

    Dear all..

    Most of you are talking as if I am in the opposite team .You are not Miss A and i am not Miss B in particular..Miss A and Miss B are the voices inside my me,my mind..I have been unclear about myself regarding my take on this..As the optimistic part in me,Miss A says ,I strongly believe that one is free to choose and others should respect her what she/he is.But till date,I haven’t seen or heard of a person who will act and justify like Miss A ,remember,in real time..Or maybe it is just me and my life,that i am too pessimistic,but trust me,my conclusions are drawn out of experience..I have a feeling(not a vague intuition,but a strong conviction) that none of the people around me,and that includes even my mother or my husband,who will stand by my side if it happened to me.They would say ‘Why did you wear such a dress’ or ‘You should have taken care’..If education is the benchmark for being civilized,all of them are high above the average benchmark..So I better be in what they feel right,as i can’t fight with everybody,including my family..Maybe i am being pessimistic and i hope i go wrong,but this is how things are in my life ,so i better deal with it and make the best out of given scenario rather than fighting with others all my life.Yes,I know that even if i dress in dull colours or in sack like dress,some people will find me pretty and tease me..But atleast,I am glad that the number of people who do so will be small,in comparison to the reaction i would get if i wore what i like..I don’t dress like a donkey-in dull and sack attire,but i don’t dress like Britney Spears either..

    If i was in the opposite side of your thoughts,how can i talk and think like Miss A? My mind has both these convictions and i can’t (still) make out where i stand..

    But thatz just me,i would never say that i am right,but i am only trying to make out the best of what i have.Those who have a better environment can do it and live their life…I will never ever point fingers at them..

  45. >Any woman should be able to wear what she wants anywhere

    that could result in a huge reduction in work done in the workplace!

    —————————–

    Hi ,Welcome to my blog…

    Could you please expand what you said,sorry i dind’t get it.. -Nimmy

    • I think he’s being sarcastic; the men would look at the women instead of doing their work. But seriously, that would happen, at first, then the more women were around the less they would be noticed. I’ve seen it happen many times on construction sites when women join the crews.

  46. Nimmy u said u are in a small world. Actually most women in India think like u. So u have good company. Blogosphere represents the more independent and liberal women. Thats why u feeling small. You are very honest of ur personal limitations in taking the plunge. So u have to start from a more conservative base. I am sure ur daughter or ur daughter in law will be able to start from a more liberal base because of you. Cheer up]

    ———————————–

    🙂 Cheers and Thanks.. -Nimmy

  47. oh wow,there I stayed from blogs for oneday and this place has gone crazy 😛 er…this is slightly more interesting than management I would say..And ya I understood your view…and there seems to be a lot of harassing in B’lore these days…

  48. Even after reading through all the comments, the question still remains – How much is too much?
    Will you be comfortable if a naked man gets into a bus and sits next to you?
    Or should be hide a woman in a Burkha so that no one lusts after her?
    There has to be a thin line somewhere….
    The problem is that the line is different for different minds!

    ——————————-

    Yes,modesty is subjective and hence all these debates on ‘how much is too much’.. **sigh** -Nimmy

      • uzza
      • March 4th, 2009

      why is that a problem?

  49. How Do We Know…

    Here in the United States female sexuality is put up on a pedestal while male sexuality is put down as dangerous and criminalized…Equal rights for women is the smoke that the feminists blow in the eyes in order to conceal their real agenda which is the promotion of hatred of men and the destruction of the natural relationships and bonds that exist between individual members of the male and female genders…

    Feminists do not LOVE as all they can do is HATE…

    BTW China has an acute shortage of women due to abortion and way back in the late 70’s it was being reported that 50 million or so females were missing from the general population (0nce again) due to abortion…

  50. Opps I should have wrote:

    …way back in the late 70’s it was being reported that 50 million or so females were missing from the general population of INDIA (0nce again) due to abortion…

  51. This is the end result of the feminism that you females espouse:

    Radical feminists even went a step further to promote chaos in the society by pitting women against women. They introduced IPC Section 498A which allows arrests and jailing of innocent mothers and sisters of men based on a mere complaint by a disgruntled daughter-in-law. They introduced the Domestic Violence (DV) Act which allows a daughter-in-law to evict her mother-in-law out of her own property and render her homeless. If you think this is outrageous, here is the coup de gras: on the one hand radical feminists demanded that adultery be treated as a crime when committed by men. On the other hand, they demanded that adulterous women be considered as victims and not penalized under criminal law. They ensured that the DV Act empowers a wife to violate marital norms with impunity and also claim residence and maintenance rights in spite of being unfaithful to the husband. Through the DV Act they also sought to grant live-in partners and concubines the same legal status as a legally wedded wife. The end result is that the protections and privileges, granted to a live-in-partner or concubine, violate the rights of a legally wedded wife and dependent female members of a man’s family.

    You can read the rest by clicking on this link: http://uchalla.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/151/

    • Ross
    • January 5th, 2010

    men have sexual urges at work because of female coworkers dressed provocatively -thats a fact . men cant help it -its involuntary -theyre just turned on by cleavage, tight blouses, etc- its not fair for women to tease their male colleaugues at work by dressing sexy or by deliberately attracting male attention for their amusement -thats wrong

      • Nimmy
      • March 25th, 2010

      Hi Ross,welcome here..Sorry for late reply.. Maybe you will find my latest post interesting..

    • Dave
    • July 5th, 2010

    I was looking for school uniforms online. Don’t know what this has to do with anything.

    • Jessica Powell (#Winning)
    • April 15th, 2012

    Promiscuity is something thats been around for a long time. As long as there is Promiscuity, there will be immoral girls (and boys of course) dressing immodestly. Girls want to Attract the opposite sex (and sometimes even the same sex) for a multitude of reasons. A lot of times girls who dress attractively are trying to get others to like her. Girls spend a lot of time worrying about what others think. If they’re outfit and hair is perfect – girls believe that they themselves are perfect.

    Biblically Speaking, Dressing immodestly is wrong.

    • Jessica Powell (#Winning)
    • April 15th, 2012

    Jessica Powell (#Winning) :
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Promiscuity is something thats been around for a long time. As long as there is Promiscuity, there will be immoral girls (and boys of course) dressing immodestly. Girls want to Attract the opposite sex (and sometimes even the same sex) for a multitude of reasons. A lot of times girls who dress attractively are trying to get others to like her. Girls spend a lot of time worrying about what others think. If they’re outfit and hair is perfect – girls believe that they themselves are perfect.
    Biblically Speaking, Dressing immodestly is wrong.

  52. Hello there! Your post rocks at the same time as being a genuine amazing recognize!
    ??

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